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 Post subject: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 12:53 am 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
There hasn’t been a rules change since January. While the RC may feel the format is fine, some players feel the current meta doesn’t represent what is outlined in the philosophy document.

The document is an important tool that the community uses to try and understand the vision of the RC. Does the philosophy document still accurately represent the RC’s vision of the format? Should we expect an update to the four year old document?


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 2:52 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Disclaimer: I'm not the RC, this is my own opinion, etc.

One might argue that the lack of major changes is a sign that the vision of the RC lines up with their experiences playing the game.

What metagame in particular that you're talking about? Your LGS? Your playgroup? MTGO? Pick up games at GPs or other large events?

Are there parts of the philosophy document you don't feel are realistic or implementable?

I just reread the philosophy post:

http://forum.mtgcommander.net/EDH_Forum ... =1&t=12254

I don't believe it's in need of an update, but I'm definitely interested in hearing what others think here, especially dissenting (and well reasoned) opinions.

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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 4:22 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
I, too, am interested in hearing what folks have to say.

I'll add the caveat that I don't believe there is a format-wide metagame. Metagames are focused at the highest level of repeated interaction, which is probably your LGS.

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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 4:57 am 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
Age: Drake
tarnar wrote:
Disclaimer: I'm not the RC, this is my own opinion, etc.

One might argue that the lack of major changes is a sign that the vision of the RC lines up with their experiences playing the game.

What metagame in particular that you're talking about? Your LGS? Your playgroup? MTGO? Pick up games at GPs or other large events?

Are there parts of the philosophy document you don't feel are realistic or implementable?

I just reread the philosophy post:

http://forum.mtgcommander.net/EDH_Forum ... =1&t=12254

I don't believe it's in need of an update, but I'm definitely interested in hearing what others think here, especially dissenting (and well reasoned) opinions.


I guess 'meta' was poor word choice in the original post. All of the metas are part of the format.

I don't care if the goals of the document are realistic or not. I just want the vision of the RC to be understood by the players. If the RC feels the current document is adequate, I won't complain.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 5:45 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MatthewB wrote:
There hasn’t been a rules change since January. While the RC may feel the format is fine, some players feel the current meta doesn’t represent what is outlined in the philosophy document.

The document is an important tool that the community uses to try and understand the vision of the RC. Does the philosophy document still accurately represent the RC’s vision of the format? Should we expect an update to the four year old document?


I think it needs tweaking at best. I'm sure we'll continue to revisit it.

I'm mostly posting to note that "no rules changes since January" is a good thing. That's the goal to strive for.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 8:52 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
I, too, am interested in hearing what folks have to say.

I'll add the caveat that I don't believe there is a format-wide metagame. Metagames are focused at the highest level of repeated interaction, which is probably your LGS.

I've said my piece before in different areas, so I don't think it's much of a surprise how I feel, but:

Competitive Balance - I think that while this still holds true in it's most basic form (i.e. that Commander is not a tournament format and will not be attempted to balance for such a mentality), I do feel that there has been a gradual shift towards a more competitive play style in the sense that as more players enter the format there will naturally be more players who are stronger in deckbuilding and play. Naturally, as these players enter public games on a consistent basis there will also be a cause and effect of players tuning to deal with those opponents.

Creates Undesirable Game States/Game Situations - There are certain cards that scream "EDH" but tend to be repetitive snoozefests when they win games. Think Tooth and Nail, Craterhoof Behemoth, Deadeye Navigator, Exsanguinate. Now, I'm not calling for a ban on any of these cards (T&N may come close though), but there are some pretty boring and played out cards that people complain about. I guess what I'm saying is that this category shouldn't just look at broken mana costs and "counter this out of nowhere or you lose" cards. Also, "archenemy" cards could fall under this category (the idea of a card that is so powerful that it turns the game into archenemy when it gets played).

Warps the Format Strategically - This should probably hold more weight, or at least when a card falls under this category there should be a concern if it falls into any other ones as well.

Perceived Barrier to Entry - I still maintain the opinion that this is an outdated concern and is no longer needed after 5 sets of precons and as large the format has grown. This is no longer a format that needs to distinguish itself from Vintage or prove to everyone that you don't need to drop a mint in order to build a competitive deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 9:19 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Matthew - Are you able to elaborate on your opinion. You stated that some people feel that the meta/format is not aligning with the vision statement, but you dont go on the explain how they differ.

cryogen wrote:
Perceived Barrier to Entry - I still maintain the opinion that this is an outdated concern and is no longer needed after 5 sets of precons and as large the format has grown. This is no longer a format that needs to distinguish itself from Vintage or prove to everyone that you don't need to drop a mint in order to build a competitive deck.

I dont think I can agree that unbanning the power 9 would be a net positive for the format. There are very few cards which are on the list for this criteria, and none of them add anything unique or interesting to the format. All of them are suped-up versions of things you can do anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 9:32 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I dont think I can agree that unbanning the power 9 would be a net positive for the format. There are very few cards which are on the list for this criteria, and none of them add anything unique or interesting to the format. All of them are suped-up versions of things you can do anyway.[/quote]
I'm not inherently suggesting that we should unban the P8. Most of the cards on the list are broken and would not make the format healthier. However, the idea behind PBtE is that potential players are going to be turned off of the format because of the idea that in order to compete you need Power. This simply isn't true and there is an abundance of information to support this. What I am suggesting is that even without this PBtE mentality there are still a number of cards which would remained banned. However, if the philosophy of EDH is still that less cards on the ban list is better, and getting to play cool old cards that you can't play anywhere else, then doesn't it make sense to find a reason to not have to keep cards arbitrarily banned?


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 5:28 pm 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
Personally, 'no changes since January' sounds a bit odd to me when talking about rules/ban list, but not when talking about the format's philosophy. I would think that with so little change, something would show up as warping at least a specific type of deck.

The only card I see that does that in my meta that I'm curious about is Darksteel Forge. It's not broken, but it is very strong and makes a number of good field wipes useless. It's showing up in every artifact deck I see, including mine (I'm working on a second one). My play group has had some trouble with it, partly because it's indestructible, partly because it makes nearly all of the deck's creatures indestructible. It makes every nonland in my colorless artifact deck indestructible (except my commander). That kind of protection is pretty strong, especially when followed with some kind of combo or mass Shroud/Hexproof.

So my question is, is it just me, or is Darksteel Forge a card that kind of warps artifact decks? I know my view of things is a bit skewed because artifacts are what I focus on, but I'm wondering what other people see?

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Commanders:
-The Ur-Dragon-Five Color Dragon Tribal Deck
-Nekusar, the Mindrazer-Hardcore Mill Deck
-Nahiri, the Lithomancer-Monowhite Soldier/Equipment Deck
-Sharuum the Hegemon-Esper Artifact Themed Deck
-Karador, Ghost Chieftain-Kamigawa Spirit Reanimator Tribal Deck
-Zedruu the Greathearted-Predictability is Weakness Themed Deck
-Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist-Monogreen Land Based Deck


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 9:49 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
Darksteel Forge is simply a reason to run more exile removal in my book. It's more annoying than broken.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-19 11:58 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
I'll add the caveat that I don't believe there is a format-wide metagame. Metagames are focused at the highest level of repeated interaction, which is probably your LGS.


Quoted for emphasis. Unlike tournament formats (yes, you *can* play EDH as an FNM format, but this isn't what I mean), I'm not sure we can deduce anything about the global EDH metagame beyond, perhaps, a recognition of UG being incredibly strong and people liking to ramp into battlecruiser cards. Not suggesting action has to be taken against either of those things, just an observation.

Personally, there are probably half-a-dozen cards or so I think are incompatible with the philosophy as currently laid out- Iona, Derevi, Sol Ring/Mana Crypt, and a few others- and which I think should ideally be banned. However, I don't think any of those cards are problematic enough that they need to be banned, and I understand the desire for a minimalist banlist even though I do not agree with it. Given the stated aims of the RC, I think the format's in a pretty good place- I just think it would be in an even better one if they were more proactive about banning obnoxious stuff.

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Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Marisi, Breaker of the Coil (Naya Midrange).
Mathas, Fiend Seeker (Mardu Judo).


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-20 12:00 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Marit Lage wrote:
Darksteel Forge is simply a reason to run more exile removal in my book. It's more annoying than broken.
Yup, I ran it for a bit, and my local group upped their count of exiling artifacts, or bounce (in response to a board wipe). Plus, higher sightings of things like Terminus & Final Judgment. In a meta that has access to cards, it's not an issue. In a meta that doesn't have full access - I can see it being more of a problem (in which case, play nice and take it out, or play that deck only so often :p )


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-20 12:15 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Carthain wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
Darksteel Forge is simply a reason to run more exile removal in my book. It's more annoying than broken.
Yup, I ran it for a bit, and my local group upped their count of exiling artifacts, or bounce (in response to a board wipe). Plus, higher sightings of things like Terminus & Final Judgment. In a meta that has access to cards, it's not an issue. In a meta that doesn't have full access - I can see it being more of a problem (in which case, play nice and take it out, or play that deck only so often :p )

Merciless Eviction for the win.

The only time Darksteel Forge is really a problem is when it's being combined with Nevinyrral's Disk, because someone decided they needed to be That Guy.

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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-21 4:51 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
The only time Darksteel Forge is really a problem is when it's being combined with Nevinyrral's Disk, because someone decided they needed to be That Guy.

Honestly, as long as they don't run out a Mycosynth Lattice I think those two cards are fine together.


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 Post subject: Re: Vision of the Format
AgePosted: 2016-Dec-21 7:15 am 

Joined: 2016-Aug-15 1:21 pm
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Marit Lage wrote:
Darksteel Forge is simply a reason to run more exile removal in my book. It's more annoying than broken.
Yup, I ran it for a bit, and my local group upped their count of exiling artifacts, or bounce (in response to a board wipe). Plus, higher sightings of things like Terminus & Final Judgment. In a meta that has access to cards, it's not an issue. In a meta that doesn't have full access - I can see it being more of a problem (in which case, play nice and take it out, or play that deck only so often :p )


It's not that my play group doesn't have access to cards, it's that they believe the best solution to a problem is to pull out something like Overwhelming Stampede, Thunderfoot Baloth, and just about any other mass trample effect. Most of the time it doesn't work with a Forge out.

I'm not sure what to make of it all, but it sounds like Darksteel Forge sees a lot more play then I thought. It makes me wonder about some of the artifacts that make strong combos with it...since every group is different and I'm sure there are a lot of times where a Forge comes out and nobody has an answer to it in time to stop the artifact deck. It's happened a number of times in my play group.

Marit Lage wrote:
Darksteel Forge is simply a reason to run more exile removal in my book. It's more annoying than broken.


I'm not sure if 'run more exile' is the kind of reason to dismiss how strong Darksteel Forge can be. It's a strong defense, a combo enabler, and something I see in every artifact commander deck. I think that maybe if artifacts weren't as expensive as they are, Darksteel Forge might have seen enough play to have been a Prophet of Kruphix in regards to counter-play (Esper).

_________________
Commanders:
-The Ur-Dragon-Five Color Dragon Tribal Deck
-Nekusar, the Mindrazer-Hardcore Mill Deck
-Nahiri, the Lithomancer-Monowhite Soldier/Equipment Deck
-Sharuum the Hegemon-Esper Artifact Themed Deck
-Karador, Ghost Chieftain-Kamigawa Spirit Reanimator Tribal Deck
-Zedruu the Greathearted-Predictability is Weakness Themed Deck
-Nissa, Vastwood Seer/Nissa, Sage Animist-Monogreen Land Based Deck


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