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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-08 1:13 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Paradox engine = omniscience is a bit of an oversimplification. I can see it acting like omniscience when you have the right set up, but that set up always includes at least two other cards, usually big mana rocks.

And pretty much has to include Signets or Lotus or similar, because ~6 colorless isn't going really anywhere unless you're focusing on artifacts hard.


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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-09 3:31 am 

Joined: 2017-Feb-09 2:47 am
Age: Hatchling
Sovarius wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Paradox engine = omniscience is a bit of an oversimplification. I can see it acting like omniscience when you have the right set up, but that set up always includes at least two other cards, usually big mana rocks.

And pretty much has to include Signets or Lotus or similar, because ~6 colorless isn't going really anywhere unless you're focusing on artifacts hard.


Most of the decks that are abusing this card are focusing on artifacts hard, or are abusing it in other ways. Also, there are way more than enough mana rocks that produce color to ensure that you'll have some (signets, lotus, talismans, fellwar stone, mox diamond, mox opal, chrome mox...).

This card is often about equal to omniscience or better in the decks that can abuse it (which are the ones that are running it). I've rarely played this card and not won in the same turn. Usually when I draw it or tutor it, I'm often in a situation where I can play it. It's not as situational as you want to think. Needing a few other cards to go with it isn't that tasking when your deck is filled with those cards. Elfball goes off with this card with with a couple elves w/ priest of titania, elvish archdruid, wirewood channeler, or even argothian elder with a cradle or nykthos. Captain Sisay decks can build around this card and win the turn after she's played. Azami can go nuts with this card. Certainly better than omniscience in that deck. Same with Arcum Daggson.

I could reasonably see this card getting banned, but I think it will go untouched. The card is extremely powerful but it's mostly being abused in more competitive decks.


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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-09 11:07 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
FrankTheFoot wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
~6 colorless isn't going really anywhere unless you're focusing on artifacts hard.


Most of the decks that are abusing this card are focusing on artifacts hard, or are abusing it in other ways. Also, there are way more than enough mana rocks that produce color to ensure that you'll have some (signets, lotus, talismans, fellwar stone, mox diamond, mox opal, chrome mox...).

Artifact decks have their frailties and are far from domineering and warping this format.

Everything else you named taps for only 1 mana, 1 color at a time, so you need multiple (unless all of your spells cost 2 units of colored mana and are very cheap cmc overall and your rocks tap for any color (which is totally possible, but come on)).

If someone is playing that many mana rocks, there is another issue going on here that attacking Paradox Engine is not going to address.

If someone has that many mana rocks and Engine, the worst that can happen is they win, which is fair, since you are now describing not only Engine and like 3 (to what, 5?) mana rocks, but something else on the field that is the win con (either an activated ability or something that draws so you can keep doing stuff). I'm not personally worried.

The legal Moxes all have drawbacks that are not negligible for most decks, again limiting what efficient rocks you can use with Engine without building to break it.

FrankTheFoot wrote:
It's not as situational as you want to think.

How can you be sure it's not exactly as situational as i think? I'm not saying it isn't powerful or telling anyone they are wrong. I'm just posting thoughts about how it's pretty obviously not a bannable card.

I think everyone worried about it or calling for a ban (not that there's an extreme amount...) should also consider that it's new and people are still just testing it out.

Speaking anecdotally, this card has not popped up in my local meta at all. Haven't seen it in casuals and haven't seen it in my tournament games. And to be honest, i'm not really surprised. I don't expect i will see it when i go to my weekly tournament tonight, either. Although, on the other hand, i'm also not at all surprised this card is cropping up for some people and perceived to be dominating.

FrankTheFoot wrote:
Needing a few other cards to go with it isn't that tasking when your deck is filled with those cards.

This is exactly the crux of my argument. It's not a card that simply goes into every deck by virtue of being legal in literally all decks.
As you say, it's something abusable by the competitive decks.


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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-10 12:38 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
FrankTheFoot wrote:
Same with Arcum Daggson.

Arcum Daggson is a prick with or without Paradox Engine. Period.

Anyone who wants this thing banned will need a better argument than "people can combo out with it if they want to", which is essentially all I've seen advanced as a reason it's broken. I've yet to see a reason it's worse than all the other ways people can combo out.

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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-10 12:51 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
I've got one coming and I intend to shove it into a deck without any other changes. Just need to decide which deck it goes into.

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Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-10 2:49 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
zimagic wrote:
I've got one coming and I intend to shove it into a deck without any other changes. Just need to decide which deck it goes into.


Braids?

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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-10 3:57 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Shabbaman wrote:
zimagic wrote:
I've got one coming and I intend to shove it into a deck without any other changes. Just need to decide which deck it goes into.


Braids?


Ha!

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Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
Grenzo's Goblins


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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-12 12:01 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
It's definitely a powerful card to be sure, and a deck could easily be built to use/abuse it, BUT that doesn't mean that it automatically breaks a deck.
You pretty much need 3-5 mana rocks and a way to consistently draw cards on a tap effect to go ham, at which point it's what? A 5 card minimum combo? There are plenty of other card combos that do more with less pieces, be it damage, lifeloss, mill, etc. Yet there aren't any people crying for the ban of those combo enablers. The Mike and Trike combo? Probably one of the worst offenders of the 2 card combos, easily tutorable, yet each is fine on their own, but people find a way to break them. It will be seen often depending on the meta, but not an auto include in every black deck, or shouldn't be anyway.
I haven't heard people complain about Omniscience or Enter the Infinite being a 2 card combo that let's you dump your deck with 2 cards. Excuse likely being the mana needed to cast them. Weak argument in light of this Paradox Engine combo piece

Worst case scenario you give your creatures vigilance, best case you combo off a turn faster than you could have otherwise done had you pulled a different combo piece.

Personally I have 12 decks, only 3 are using the Engine, and 2 are combo decks. Sliver Overlord and Selvala, Heart of the Wilds, with the 3rd being Hope of Ghirapur Voltron.

Strapping a rocket on a car will make it go faster for sure, but if you don't have the fuel to power it, you just have a car with a rocket on it.

TL;DR - Card isn't bannable. It's just a combo piece. Combo as an Archetype will not be hindered if this were banned. This doesn't turn every deck into a combo deck. It doesn't do anything spectacular without multiple mana rocks/dorks. Still need fuel to power the rocket car.


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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-14 7:09 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Alright so the more I play with this card, the less offensive it seems. In the decks without combo pieces, it generates a ton of mana on one turn... and that's pretty much it. In the decks where it combos off, well that deck was going to combo off one way or the other anyway.

Selvala decks (where this card seemed the most terrifying to me) have even started cutting it because it's a win-more, so I see that as a good sign.

There is the combo of any mana rock that makes 3 mana, PE, and Strionic Resonator, but that's not much different than Rings/Basalt Monolith in my opinion. And two of these pieces are dead cards more often.

Panic over, move along :lol:

Edit: Disclosure - I play it in a deck with lots of mana dorks and Thrasios/Kydele as commanders. If Paradox Engine were not a thing, the deck would do the exact same thing with Scepter/Dramatic Reversal or Intruder Alarm and various bouncey creatures.


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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-15 1:29 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
majikal wrote:
Alright so the more I play with this card, the less offensive it seems. In the decks without combo pieces, it generates a ton of mana on one turn... and that's pretty much it. In the decks where it combos off, well that deck was going to combo off one way or the other anyway.

Selvala decks (where this card seemed the most terrifying to me) have even started cutting it because it's a win-more, so I see that as a good sign.

There is the combo of any mana rock that makes 3 mana, PE, and Strionic Resonator, but that's not much different than Rings/Basalt Monolith in my opinion. And two of these pieces are dead cards more often.

Panic over, move along :lol:


I'd agree with this too. Unless you're actively using it to be a combo piece (and in which case it's likely not your only usable cog in that set-up) it's just fiddling about really.
I've had it with no hand and it's done nothing (obviously) so card draw or reusability is a must. I've had it with the hand but nothing major to untap, so it's granted pseudo-vigalence to some dudes.
The only time I've had it do anything of note is with a non-tutored Metalworker with a non-tutored Staff of Domination in hand and, well, I didn't really need Paradox Engine there, did I?

Without pushing it, so far it's been unspectacular. I'm going to run it in the Sydri artifact deck again tomorrow before I shift it off to something a little more spell oriented like Grumpy Shu-Yun and see what happens.

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Current decks:
Sydri's random pile of cards with "Artifact" on them
Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
Morophon Eldrazi (5C Devoid)
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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-16 8:36 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
I'm going to say that I think people are massively overlooking what this card should actually be used for. Yes it combos with F***ing everything but honestly that's just a bonus. You don't need to "build the entire deck around it". You play typical U/G or U/G/x goodstuff control deck #587 and it's basically Prophet of Kruphix on three truckloads of PCP with a giant six foot long hateboner for your ability to play anything relevant ever.

You don't need to overcompensate on rocks, you've got Birds of Paradise, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Gilded Lotus, relevant signets, all things that get thrown in basically every deck. Then after that your typical suite of goodstuff answers draw and tutors are enough to overpower the other three players easily given that these decks already do so without paradox engine.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-16 2:00 pm 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-18 12:55 pm
Age: Drake
Gath Immortal wrote:
I'm going to say that I think people are massively overlooking what this card should actually be used for. Yes it combos with F***ing everything but honestly that's just a bonus. You don't need to "build the entire deck around it". You play typical U/G or U/G/x goodstuff control deck #587 and it's basically Prophet of Kruphix on three truckloads of PCP with a giant six foot long hateboner for your ability to play anything relevant ever.

You don't need to overcompensate on rocks, you've got Birds of Paradise, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Gilded Lotus, relevant signets, all things that get thrown in basically every deck. Then after that your typical suite of goodstuff answers draw and tutors are enough to overpower the other three players easily given that these decks already do so without paradox engine.


So since it pretty much goes in any deck, does that make it a staple?

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Sheldon wrote:
The cards didn't just warp the way the games were played, they warped how I was conceiving and perceiving the format. That's the sign of a problem.

Carthain wrote:
The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.


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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-17 12:29 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Wolfsbane706 wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
I'm going to say that I think people are massively overlooking what this card should actually be used for. Yes it combos with F***ing everything but honestly that's just a bonus. You don't need to "build the entire deck around it". You play typical U/G or U/G/x goodstuff control deck #587 and it's basically Prophet of Kruphix on three truckloads of PCP with a giant six foot long hateboner for your ability to play anything relevant ever.

You don't need to overcompensate on rocks, you've got Birds of Paradise, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Gilded Lotus, relevant signets, all things that get thrown in basically every deck. Then after that your typical suite of goodstuff answers draw and tutors are enough to overpower the other three players easily given that these decks already do so without paradox engine.


So since it pretty much goes in any deck, does that make it a staple?


I'm not sure that classification matters, how's it relevant? What's the definition of staple? what's the difference between staple and "overpowered enough in general use it goes in every X deck".

Time Warp is massively overpowered in EDH and is played in every blue deck. Does that make it a staple? if a staple is "cards that immediately spike your win % the second they go in a deck" maybe.

If we go further and include things like Tooth & Nail, Deadeye Navigator, Palinchron, Craterhoof Behemoth, Kiki-Jiki, Mikaeus the Unhallowed, these are all things tons of people shove into their decks with no regard for deck construction because they know if they do the chance they win goes up. If that's what a staple is, I'd go as far as to say staples are a really bad thing for EDH.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-17 1:57 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
Wolfsbane706 wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
I'm going to say that I think people are massively overlooking what this card should actually be used for. Yes it combos with F***ing everything but honestly that's just a bonus. You don't need to "build the entire deck around it". You play typical U/G or U/G/x goodstuff control deck #587 and it's basically Prophet of Kruphix on three truckloads of PCP with a giant six foot long hateboner for your ability to play anything relevant ever.

You don't need to overcompensate on rocks, you've got Birds of Paradise, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Gilded Lotus, relevant signets, all things that get thrown in basically every deck. Then after that your typical suite of goodstuff answers draw and tutors are enough to overpower the other three players easily given that these decks already do so without paradox engine.


So since it pretty much goes in any deck, does that make it a staple?


I'm not sure that classification matters, how's it relevant? What's the definition of staple? what's the difference between staple and "overpowered enough in general use it goes in every X deck".

Time Warp is massively overpowered in EDH and is played in every blue deck. Does that make it a staple? if a staple is "cards that immediately spike your win % the second they go in a deck" maybe.

If we go further and include things like Tooth & Nail, Deadeye Navigator, Palinchron, Craterhoof Behemoth, Kiki-Jiki, Mikaeus the Unhallowed, these are all things tons of people shove into their decks with no regard for deck construction because they know if they do the chance they win goes up. If that's what a staple is, I'd go as far as to say staples are a really bad thing for EDH.


Your play environment is quite different from mine. I don't know of any deck in my group that runs any of those cards without a reason. Many decks use Sol Ring or Signets (I tend to leave the ring home unless the deck has a specific want for the mana) but almost none use your other "autoincludes".

I haven't gotten a chance to use the Paradox Engine in my Selvala2 deck; it's obviously going to be stupid, but that's the point of that deck. I'll toss one in the Daretti deck I'm building, too. I don't have any other decks that it will strongly affect.

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 Post subject: Re: Paradox Engine 0_o
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-17 4:10 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Gath Immortal wrote:
Wolfsbane706 wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
I'm going to say that I think people are massively overlooking what this card should actually be used for. Yes it combos with F***ing everything but honestly that's just a bonus. You don't need to "build the entire deck around it". You play typical U/G or U/G/x goodstuff control deck #587 and it's basically Prophet of Kruphix on three truckloads of PCP with a giant six foot long hateboner for your ability to play anything relevant ever.

You don't need to overcompensate on rocks, you've got Birds of Paradise, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Gilded Lotus, relevant signets, all things that get thrown in basically every deck. Then after that your typical suite of goodstuff answers draw and tutors are enough to overpower the other three players easily given that these decks already do so without paradox engine.


So since it pretty much goes in any deck, does that make it a staple?


I'm not sure that classification matters, how's it relevant? What's the definition of staple? what's the difference between staple and "overpowered enough in general use it goes in every X deck".

Time Warp is massively overpowered in EDH and is played in every blue deck. Does that make it a staple? if a staple is "cards that immediately spike your win % the second they go in a deck" maybe.

If we go further and include things like Tooth & Nail, Deadeye Navigator, Palinchron, Craterhoof Behemoth, Kiki-Jiki, Mikaeus the Unhallowed, these are all things tons of people shove into their decks with no regard for deck construction because they know if they do the chance they win goes up. If that's what a staple is, I'd go as far as to say staples are a really bad thing for EDH.


I like to think that staple just means "you really should consider this card for a deck that could run it because it's very, very useful/versatile. If money, means of acquiring it and hate for said card are not factors, you should have a really good reason for not running it." Ex. Krosan Grip in anything that's running Green.

That being said, you forgot to include Cyclonic Rift in that list of busted cards that increase your chance of winning. Card does too much for not needing to fit any particular requirement other than a single blue mana. It's thrown in decks without a care because it's the easy button on a 7cmc instant.


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