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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-03 1:12 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Serra's Sanctum is rarely better than Nykthos, honestly, and that card is fine outside of a few corner cases (*cough*Azami*cough*)


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-05 10:50 am 
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Joined: 2016-May-16 12:03 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: The Blind Eternities
Tolaria West, can be pretty powerful in my opinion as a land considering it is the blue equivalent of sylvan scrying

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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-05 11:33 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
RaiRai wrote:
Tolaria West, can be pretty powerful in my opinion as a land considering it is the blue equivalent of sylvan scrying

It's a nice card, but it's not even remotely close to being overpowered.

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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-06 12:15 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RaiRai wrote:
Tolaria West, can be pretty powerful in my opinion as a land considering it is the blue equivalent of sylvan scrying


It is a blue version of expedition map too, which makes it entirely reasonable. Tolaria west might go and get some broken lands, but it wouldn't make the top ten of powerful lands.

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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-06 1:51 am 

Joined: 2017-Jan-06 12:31 am
Age: Egg
I run a fairly standard Mana Denial Zur deck and it is my personal opinion, Serra's Sanctum isn't worth running in the deck. The White mana just isn't that great, and by the time it's producing enough, I shouldn't need it. The Blue mana from Tolarian Academy is much more valuable, and I can produce ridiculous numbers fairly fast.

You have to factor, this is a format where we get to play all of our good cards, so I can easily produce 3+ mana from Academy alone on Turn 2. I typically start games with multiple rocks. I can Turn 1 a Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Diamond, Signets, Talisman, etc.

Tolarian Academy is MUCH better than its counterparts. The Blue mana is much more valuable, and while Sanctum could produce a fair amount of mana with my extensive Enchantment package, it isn't that great. Blue mana is worth more than White, and Academy can start producing multiple Turn 1.

Tolaria West is a very good card, but I wouldn't say overpowered. It's a 3 cost Tutor that can only find cards with a 0 CMC. Most often it finds Reliquary Tower for me, but on occasion it will find a mana rock like Mana Crypt or something like Pact of Negation.

Tabernacle really only hurts certain decks, specifically Tokens. I run Mana Denial Zur, Mana Denial Kaalia, Nekusar, Colorless Eldrazi Tribal and Ghoulcaller Gisa Zombie Tribal. Tabernacle only gives my Gisa deck issues. It is far from being OP, although it is a good card to run if you have it. Personally if my decks had sideboards, Tabernacle would be a sideboard card. It's not something I would need/want to see 95% of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-08 7:10 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Azire wrote:
You have to factor, this is a format where we get to play all of our good cards, so I can easily produce 3+ mana from Academy alone on Turn 2. [...] Academy can start producing multiple Turn 1.

That's why it's banned in this format.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-09 3:31 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jan-09 3:26 pm
Age: Hatchling
I don't understand why Tolarian Academy is banned but Serra's Sanctum and Gaea's Cradle aren't. In my local playgroups, Gaea's Cradle is always abused to hell. I've never seen someone use it to casually add maybe a few more mana. It's always for some combo that results in more mana than you could ever get with Tolarian Academy early on in the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-10 4:17 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well if it's really a combo, what's the difference? You can make infinite mana with a number of 2-card combos.

If you want some reading on the amount of mana Academy makes compared to Cradle, check out the search function. It's been discussed basically ad nauseam.

However, the short of it is that artifacts:
- Are cheaper and more powerful than creatures
- Cost less, many even 0, which turns Academy on immediately
- Many ALSO provide mana
- Creature sweepers (resetting cradle) are much more common than artifact sweepers
- Many cheap artifacts exist that lock your opponent out of the game very easy (Static Orb and Winter Orb are classics)

Cradle in no way compares to the power of Academy imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-10 4:18 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Serra's Sanctum is awful, by the way. Compare to creatures, which are far superior, which are far inferior to Academy. Enchantments are also the only thing that can be easily gimped with a sweeper for 2-3 mana at instant speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-10 5:53 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jan-09 3:26 pm
Age: Hatchling
@Sovarius

I am aware how many 0 cost and low cost artifacts there are, but it is harder to create artifact tokens that allow for much more mana to be produced in a green deck with Craddle. While sure, turn one Academy with several 0 cost artifacts in play is much more mana than Craddle turn one with far less creatures in play (assuming you put in 0 cost or other creatures from mana rocks turn 1), green can get much more mana a couple turn later. Academy allows for turn 1 wins out of nowhere, but Craddle can allow for turn 2 or three wins out of nowhere. Sure, that's a couple more turns, but still not fun.

Hahaha okay yeah rethought Serra's. It isn't bad, but it doesn't allow for turn 1, 2, or 3 wins by any means.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-11 6:05 am 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
finnlavich wrote:
Craddle can allow for turn 2 or three wins out of nowhere.
Show me. Show me this turn 2 or 3 win where you start the turn with approximately nothing, then win because you play a Cradle.

Cradle doesn't do that. Cradle gives you a giant mess of mana turn 4 or 5, and sometimes a coupe extra on turn 3. But it turns out turn 4 or 5 is when the first Wrath usually hits too.

If you are playing Broken Combo, Cradle just doesn't compete with other Broken Combo Pieces. If you are playing battlecruiser, Cradle doesn't "turn on" until your opponents (usually) have removal available to reset the Cradle.

The card is powerful, but it's the type of power you generally want in EDH. The type that kicks in a few turns into the game and that Wrath of God interacts with.

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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-11 10:40 am 

Joined: 2017-Jan-09 3:26 pm
Age: Hatchling
Quote:
Show me. Show me this turn 2 or 3 win where you start the turn with approximately nothing, then win because you play a Cradle.


Here's one that can be switched around several ways, making it more than just some complicated once in a lifetime combo:

ONE: Turn 3 win.
Commander: Omnath, Locus of Mana
T1:
Exile Elvish Spirit Guide.
Play Elvish Mystic or Llanowar Elves or Fyndhorn Elves or Birds of Paradise.
Play Ornithopter or Phyrexian Walker or Memnite.
Play Gaea's Cradle.
Tap it to play Voyaging Satyr.
T2:
Play Dryad Arbor.
Tap your mana dork to play Quirion Ranger.
Tap Gaea's Cradle. Use 3 of the 5 G to play Omnath, Locus of Mana.
Tap Voyaging Satyr to untap Gaea's Cradle.
Tap Gaea's Cradle to add 6 more G and play Pathbreaker Ibex.
Use Quirion Ranger's ability to return Dryad Arbor to hand, untapping Gaea's Cradle.
Tap it for 6 G.
You should now have 8 G because of Omnath, Locus of Mana.
T3:
Play Dryad Arbor.
Tap Gaea's Cradle to add 7 G.
Untap Gaea's Cradle with Voyaging Satyr.
Tap it again to add another 7 G.
Use Quirion Ranger's ability to return Dryad Arbor to hand, untapping Gaea's Cradle.
Tap it again to add 6 G.
Omnath, Locus of Mana should now be a 29/29. This, combined with attacking with all your creatures should be enough damage to kill 3 other players.

Quote:
If you are playing Broken Combo, Cradle just doesn't compete with other Broken Combo Pieces. If you are playing battlecruiser, Cradle doesn't "turn on" until your opponents (usually) have removal available to reset the Cradle.


With your logic of my opponents already having the removal ready to stop my plans, then that means we should unban Painter's Servant because someone can have a Path to Exile ready to stop my combo with Grindstone. And yes, I know, that is a two card combo as opposed to a several card combo, but that's the same with Gaea's Cradle and Tolarian Academy.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-11 11:39 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
That is a combo involving 8 of your 9 cards on turn 2 including several with pretty unique effects. I dont mind christmaslandy scenarios but dont try to pass that off as something that is even remotely likely to happen more than 1 in 100 games.

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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-11 2:25 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jan-09 3:26 pm
Age: Hatchling
I am happy to see that you are willing to see another perspective and constructively criticize my argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-11 2:39 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
finnlavich wrote:
Here's one that can be switched around several ways, making it more than just some complicated once in a lifetime combo:

This statement is ironic, since despite the fact that you can list several 1cmc mana dorks and all of like 3 0cmc artifact creatures, does not make this any less than exactly a complicated once in a lifetime combo.

Even if you play Crop Rotation, your chances of anything like this are slim and seemingly require one specific monogreen commander.

You are shooting down specter for not constructively criticizing your argument, but he is.

- Requires 8 specific cards out of the 9 you will see by turn 2:
Does anyone *actually* have to explain how this math is low odds, even though there are roughly five 1cmc mana dorks and 3-ish 0cmc artifact creatures?
What are your odds of starting with Cradle and the Guide and the Satyr and the Ranger? This is what they mean by 'pretty unique effects' - those cards don't have substitutes in your combo without adding turns because the other effects cost more cards or mana.
Are you even looking at the fact that after two mulls this takes *exactly* every card you draw?

All of that seems to be implied to me by his statement honestly.

Also, you're playing god awful cards like the 0cmc artifacts in the hopes that you can land this t1 Cradle in an Omnath deck, and none of those cards do anything for you without cradle.


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