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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-11 3:18 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jan-09 3:26 pm
Age: Hatchling
Quote:
Even if you play Crop Rotation, your chances of anything like this are slim and seemingly require one specific monogreen commander.


... or Tempt with Discovery or Sylvan Scrying or Reap and Sow or Expedition Map or Scapeshift. And if you make a deck that cares about it a lot, Ulvenwald Hydra. Gaea's Cradle can be searched for better in monogreen than Tolarian Academy can be searched for in monoblue. Monoblue only has Tolaria West and Expedition Map. And while yes, blue can draw cards better, green can specifically look for Gaea's Cradle.

Quote:
- Requires 8 specific cards out of the 9 you will see by turn 2


Yes. For that one very specific combo. I didn't see him list me even one for an ideal Tolarian Academy play. He asked me for at least one kill before turn 4 when Wrath of God could be played, and I gave it to him. You can change the combo before turn 3, using the mana that was made for making Omnath, Locus of Mana big instead on other useful cards like Winter Orb to push yourself ahead with your one land turns. Do you require me to list every possible combo?

Quote:
Are you even looking at the fact that after two mulls this takes *exactly* every card you draw


Yeah. That was a very specific combo. It was one in many. If you want more, ask away. Or figure them out yourself because apparently neither you nor him can believe that that card can help kill on turn 3 without a very specific combination of cards on turn one.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-12 12:20 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
finnlavich wrote:
Yeah. That was a very specific combo. It was one in many. If you want more, ask away. Or figure them out yourself because apparently neither you nor him can believe that that card can help kill on turn 3 without a very specific combination of cards on turn one.

I'd also like to throw my hat into the "I don't see this as being common enough to warrant any potential banning" camp.

Plus, you're running cards that - without Cradle - are garbage in a green deck. Ornithopter? (or any of the other 0-mana artifact dudes).

What I see is a decklist (even without the full list) focused on getting as early of a kill as possible. So, if your opponents can live past it (possibly just due to you not drawing it - not even talking about any responses they might have) then they don't need to worry about your deck for the most part - 'cuz you're struggling for a critical mass that they can often see coming a turn or two away (and a simple Wrath effect will set you back to square one.)

Plus, it's so easy to hate that out - every other colour has a couple low-mana answers to that kind of thing because it's all creature based. Blue has bounce, red has burn, black has a number of low-mana removal spells, and white even has a few.

So sure, a build like this could take a few games - but then the metagame should shift to make that deck nonviable.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-12 8:14 am 

Joined: 2017-Jan-09 3:26 pm
Age: Hatchling
Okay well if no one agrees with me on that land, what is a land that people do want banned?


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-12 9:11 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Island.

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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-12 9:21 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:


If this were a conversation about Legacy, you would have my vote.

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Gath Immortal wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-12 1:54 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
finnlavich wrote:
Okay well if no one agrees with me on that land, what is a land that people do want banned?

Nothing. There are no currently legal lands that I think are too overpowered for EDH. There are some that I would definitely kill on principle - many in fact - but being worth spending removal on is nowhere near the same thing as banworthy.

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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-12 6:47 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
I don't see any lands as problematic. Some can be annoying (looking at you there Glacial Chasm), but over the years there have been a lot of cheap non-basic land destruction options so lands that really warp the game that stay on the field that long.

Although maybe not an 'official' ban criterium, I guess that's a big reason why lands as Gaea's Cradle don't get banned. Sure, they're extremely powerfull, maybe too powerfull in many occasions, but they're easily dealt with. My friend used to have a lands deck with all the shenanigans like Dark Depths, 'used to', because every one quickly learned that cards like Ghost Quarter are never a wasted land slot.


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 Post subject: Re: Overpowered lands
AgePosted: 2017-Jan-12 7:22 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
finnlavich wrote:

In your world, these cards all raise the minimum number of turns to kill by a LOT. Scrying and Map don't put it into play, it costs a land drop for turn, slower than a natural draw or Rotation.

Your argument was that these cards are interchangeable; i pointed out not all are and that other similar cards are often much more mana. You responded by actually listing exactly what i said costs more mana and costs you more turns...
Scapeshift? Come on, 4 mana and it enters tapped?

finnlavich wrote:
Gaea's Cradle can be searched for better in monogreen than Tolarian Academy can be searched for in monoblue.

I don't think anyone disagrees, but that is one thing easier about Cradle than Academy compared the multiple other benefits Academy has.

finnlavich wrote:
Yes. For that one very specific combo. I didn't see him list me even one for an ideal Tolarian Academy play.

Why would he have to? Academy is already banned, he does not need to argue against it for (further?) banning.

finnlavich wrote:
Winter Orb to push yourself ahead with your one land turns.

Seems awful for a creature deck, it's only good in a position where you describe you already winning?

finnlavich wrote:
Do you require me to list every possible combo?

No one is asking that, but considering Scapeshift redundancy for your combo is incredibly misleading.
What i would ask, is to come up with a combo doesn't require 8 out of 9 of your cards to play. If it's so good and broken, then why does it require all of those?
This is honestly not a deck i would lose to or be mad about losing to.

finnlavich wrote:
Or figure them out yourself because apparently neither you nor him can believe that that card can help kill on turn 3 without a very specific combination of cards on turn one.

Correct, it requires a very specific combination of cards.
I don't believe in any world where your scenario is remotely likely or worth trying to do.

That deck flops to Strip Mine, and if you considering Crucible of Worlds redundancy to protect the combo, consider how much extra mana that requires to pause and play Crucible (and take cards in your hand).

I wouldn't ask you to, and i don't expect you to... But if this deck existed i would note down every one of 15 sample hands plus their mulligan and tabulate how many can goldfish into killing the table on turn 3.

kirkusjones wrote:
Spectrar Ghost wrote:


If this were a conversation about Legacy, you would have my vote.

Do people actually play this card in Legacy? A 1-of maximum? :p


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