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 Post subject: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-13 10:13 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
OK, so I'm pretty sure, like 99.99% sure that this is right, but I want to get some input from people who are better with layers than I am...

I have an Island that's a creature, courtesy of Noyan Dar. I target the animated island with Mirrorweave (giving it an additional +3/+3 with Noyan's trigger, of course) and then all creatures become non-animated basic islands. I know that much is true. Now the questions...
1. I'm pretty sure the original island remains a creature, because the effect that's making it a creature doesn't go away when it becomes a copy of something (including itself), much like a Giant Growth doesn't disappear just because something becomes a copy of something else. Correct?
2. Assuming #1 is true, it then follows that any OTHER lands I have animated would also remain animated, for the same reason.

I just want to be sure I have this down, because people tend to look at me funny when I play this deck and do these kinds of things.

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 Post subject: Re: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-13 10:52 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
1. Yes, because Mirrorweave says other.

2. They become non animated islands, since they copy the printed values.


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 Post subject: Re: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-13 2:53 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
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Marit Lage wrote:
2. They become non animated islands, since they copy the printed values.

Becoming a copy of something else doesn't stop continuous effects from applying to something (unless it no longer meets the criteria to be affected). So if you had an Island and a Plains both animated by Noyan Dar and you Mirrorweave the Island, the Plains will become an Island, but will still be animated by the continuous effect created by Noyan Dar's ability.


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 Post subject: Re: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-13 3:29 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jul-06 5:58 pm
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One thing to note: Since the lands are 0/0 with counters on them. Any creature that doesn't have any type of +1/+1 effects (counters, anthem, etc...) effecting them would become 0/0 and they would die.

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 Post subject: Re: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-13 8:42 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
topramen wrote:
One thing to note: Since the lands are 0/0 with counters on them. Any creature that doesn't have any type of +1/+1 effects (counters, anthem, etc...) effecting them would become 0/0 and they would die.
No, they wouldn't. Lands don't have P/T unless they're animated, so there's no "0/0" to copy. And if they are animated, they've got a non-zero toughness to copy.

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 Post subject: Re: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-14 1:53 am 
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Have you had a Noyan Dar Inception play yet? Mirrorweave, turning him into a land, then casting an Awaken spell afterwards, to animate him with counters?

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 Post subject: Re: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-14 7:00 am 
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Location: New Hampshire
Superstrength79 wrote:
Have you had a Noyan Dar Inception play yet? Mirrorweave, turning him into a land, then casting an Awaken spell afterwards, to animate him with counters?

I have not, but that's amazing and I want to do it now.

Willbender wrote:
No, they wouldn't. Lands don't have P/T unless they're animated, so there's no "0/0" to copy. And if they are animated, they've got a non-zero toughness to copy.

It's well established that if you Clone an animated Chimeric Staff, you get a non-animated Chimeric Staff. If the animated status copied, then he would be correct that all creatures would become base 0/0, and in fact if you Mirrorweave something like Arcbound Ravager, that is exactly what would happen. However in this case, all creatures are going to become basic unanimated islands. Of this I am 100% certain. What I want to confirm is that all my awakened lands would remain awakened when Mirrorweave resolves, and just as importantly, WHY they remain animated (or why they don't).

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 Post subject: Re: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-14 7:51 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Sid the Chicken wrote:
What I want to confirm is that all my awakened lands would remain awakened when Mirrorweave resolves, and just as importantly, WHY they remain animated (or why they don't).

They remain animated.

613.1a. Layer 1: Copy effects are applied. See rule 706, "Copying Objects."
613.1b. Layer 2: Control-changing effects are applied.
613.1c. Layer 3: Text-changing effects are applied. See rule 612, "Text-Changing Effects."
613.1d. Layer 4: Type-changing effects are applied. These include effects that change an object's card type, subtype, and/or supertype.
613.1e. Layer 5: Color-changing effects are applied.
613.1f. Layer 6: Ability-adding effects, ability-removing effects, and effects that say an object can't have an ability are applied.
613.1g. Layer 7: Power- and/or toughness-changing effects are applied.
613.2. Within layers 1-6, apply effects from characteristic-defining abilities first (see rule 604.3), then all other effects in timestamp order (see rule 613.6). Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a layer. (See rule 613.7.)
613.3. Within layer 7, apply effects in a series of sublayers in the order described below. Within each sublayer, apply effects in timestamp order. (See rule 613.6.) Note that dependency may alter the order in which effects are applied within a sublayer. (See rule 613.7.)
613.3a. Layer 7a: Effects from characteristic-defining abilities that define power and/or toughness are applied. See rule 604.3.
613.3b. Layer 7b: Effects that set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value are applied. Effects that refer to the base power and/or toughness of a creature apply in this layer.
613.3c. Layer 7c: Effects that modify power and/or toughness (but don't set power and/or toughness to a specific number or value) are applied.
613.3d. Layer 7d: Power and/or toughness changes from counters are applied. See rule 121, "Counters."
613.3e. Layer 7e: Effects that switch a creature's power and toughness are applied. Such effects take the value of power and apply it to the creature's toughness, and take the value of toughness and apply it to the creature's power.


For a given land in this situation, consider:

Copy effects are layer 1, and are applied first. So, we'll say all creatures become a basic Islands.

The previous Awaken effect applies in Layer 4 and still makes it into a creature.

Ditto, Layer 7 still gives it a power/toughness.

There are no relevant dependencies to worry about.

Mirrorweave generally only interacts with layer 1. It doesn't explicitly remove any other abilities, so the other items from other layers remain.

Edit:

The important part is to consider that all creatures, as of the resolution of the Mirrorweave, are basic Islands, period. Effectively, every physical card (or token) has been replaced with a photocopy of an Island. Some of those Islands used to be lands, that had an ongoing effect turning them into creatures. Those ongoing effects were what made them creatures, and are why they were hit by Mirrorweave in the first place. But the Mirrorweave doesn't remove those ongoing effects.

Likewise, something that was Turn to Frog'd just before the Mirrorweave is still a creature, but is also still an Island, and has no abilities (sadface).

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 Post subject: Re: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-14 8:05 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
[edit: looks like tarnar got his reply together before mine, below is pretty much a repeat of the above]

This is the best I can do:
Not that is needs be said, but mirrorweave does turn all other creatures into unanimated basic islands, as you said that one is well established. That happens at layer 1.

Layer 4 applies type changing effects, so the continuous effect applied by Noyan Darr's ability would still animate the land (this is the part I am least confident in.)
Layer 7 Power and toughness effects are applied setting the P/T of that land to 0/0 and modifying it with however many counters are on it.

So based on my reading, if I was making the ruling on commander night, your other animated lands, and any other object with a type changing ability like chimeric staff, should become island creatures after mirrorweave, while all other creatures will become lands.

I am definitely going to have to get a copy of mirrorweave on MTGO to put into my noyar dar deck now.

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 Post subject: Re: Layers and copy effects
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-14 3:19 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Thank you Tarnar, that's exactly what I needed.

specter404 wrote:
I am definitely going to have to get a copy of mirrorweave on MTGO to put into my noyar dar deck now.

I highly recommend it. It's a sweet card that can do all sorts of silly things. In the case of animated lands, it can both enable an alpha strike, or do a passable fog impression, not to mention saving all your non-land creatures (in fact ALL non-land creatures) from Wrath of God (sadly will not save the lands, but that's what Terra Eternal is for)

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