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 Post subject: Ephara and Panharmonicon
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-27 2:42 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm a hoping this works the way I want it to. Panharmonicon

The triggered ability on Ephara, God of the Polis will only trigger if a creature entered the battlefield. So does that count as a creature causing an ability to trigger, even though the cause of the trigger happens some time after the creature entering.

It makes logical sense that A caused B, but I don't know if it makes rules sense. It's not clear to me whether triggers with intervening "if" clauses are caused by their trigger event or their clause.

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 Post subject: Re: Ephara and Panharmonicon
AgePosted: 2017-Feb-27 3:08 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
The trigger on Ephara is beginning of Upkeep. The creature entering is an intervening if. While I get what you're saying, it still is triggered by upkeep, not by creature entering.


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 Post subject: Re: Ephara and Panharmonicon
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-02 6:14 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Epsilon wrote:
The trigger on Ephara is beginning of Upkeep. The creature entering is an intervening if. While I get what you're saying, it still is triggered by upkeep, not by creature entering.

This. Here's the relevant rule;
Comprehensive Rules wrote:
603.4. A triggered ability may read “When/Whenever/At [trigger event], if [condition], [effect].” When the trigger event occurs, the ability checks whether the stated condition is true. The ability triggers only if it is; otherwise it does nothing. If the ability triggers, it checks the stated condition again as it resolves. If the condition isn’t true at that time, the ability is removed from the stack and does nothing. Note that this mirrors the check for legal targets. This rule is referred to as the “intervening ‘if’ clause” rule. (The word “if” has only its normal English meaning anywhere else in the text of a card; this rule only applies to an “if” that immediately follows a trigger condition.)

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 Post subject: Re: Ephara and Panharmonicon
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-02 10:54 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
To double, Ephara would have needed to read "Whenever a creature enters the battlefield under your control, draw a card at the beginning of the next upkeep."

Or more in line with the one-card max she's written as now, it would specify for the first creature probably.


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 Post subject: Re: Ephara and Panharmonicon
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-02 12:09 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Yeah, I figured as much. Panharmonicon cares about the trigger event not the trigger condition, which makes the most sense since not every trigger has a condition.

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