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 Post subject: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 2:00 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Personally, I think this card is bad for the format - not in the way Sylvan/Primeval where bad; but more in the way of Panoptic Mirror and Time Walk.

A bit of reasons:
1. For what it does, it is WAY to cheap mana wise.
2. Games more often then not, degenerate around PoKx because of the advantage generated not only by being able to untap lands and creatures on each of your opponent's turns, but by being able to add Flash to all your creatures into the mix.
3. I have yet to see a deck that is Blue/Green/X not running Pokx. This is a worrisome thing, because that is a reason why cards are bad for this format.
4. No matter how many people try to ague its just as far as having Seedborn Muse + Flash (like Yeleva, Leyline, Orrey) its a different thing entirely. Two cards =/= one card; but one card = two cards. And in that easy to access combination it becomes an absolute monster of game domination.
5. When Eldrazi titans stop being the favored clone target after Prophet hits the board - I think there is a problem with the card.
6. The sheer basic stupidity the card enables ruins most games it comes out in (by personal experience/meta dependent.)
7. I'd rather Prime Time be unbanned, and this thing banned in its place. Hell, I'd rather Sylvan Primordial be legal, then this fun-wrecking-add-fifteen-minutes-to-each-turn-because-someone-needs-to-madecksturbate-at-the-end-of-their-opponent's-turns.



Just my humble views and experiences on the matter.

(slides a beta black lotus to each rc member.)


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 2:14 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-24 4:07 pm
Age: Dragon
A couple of things to consider. If you copy it, you get no additional benefit from having more. If someone else copies it, they are only really going to want one.

While the color combo Prophet is highly exploitable, I have found that it is also easy to kill, easy to steal, and quickly and quietly gets removed usually before the dude playing it gets to untap once. On a few rare occasions, I have seen Prophet.... go.... and nothing until the guy can draw a card..

I hate to fall back on the old "pack more answers" reply, but if the player has this out, and nobody at the table wants to deal with it, or can... well, that is a different matter. I personally have seen an opponent play one, then I copied it, and removed his from the game... thanking him for allowing me access to a very handy creature.

For the colors I feel that Progenitor Mimic is a far more troublesome card.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 2:41 pm 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
I love prophet of kruphix, every time one of my opponents cast one i win shortly thereafter, either by cloning or reanimating it.

yeah it's pretty gross and honestly the format would be better off without it.

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We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 3:08 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
yeah it's pretty gross and honestly the format would be better off without it.
Is this the weekly GI card to ban?

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 4:28 pm 

Joined: 2014-Feb-06 3:07 pm
Age: Drake
FWIW, Prophet wouldn't be so bad if G and U weren't already so dang good . . .


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 5:42 pm 

Joined: 2011-Sep-30 6:08 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Let's ban all cards that are good with other cards. I'm tired of people doing things that let them do other things. It's no fair!

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 5:45 pm 
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Joined: 2013-May-29 9:57 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Atlanta, GA
While I'm getting sick of this thing in Standard, it's mostly because I very often see another flashed in in response to me spot-removing the first. It's also a card that makes you live in mortal fear of ever tapping out for anything, much like Mana Leak was, and Mana Leak damn near singlehandedly made Standard miserable every time it was around (barring whenever it was legal alongside Counterspell).

In EDH, I'm on the fence about it. It really needs a draw engine or a hand already full of threats to get going. These aren't hard conditions to fill, but they're still conditions. She's not that resilient and in multiplayer it's hard to time it where she drops when no one can answer her AND still have a hand full of goods to unload. Not impossible at all, but somewhat difficult. Considering the bad rap she is getting in recent games, she definitely is the Archenemy card of the month, so you have to consider whether or not you could take the whole table after you drop her.

The ubiquity is an issue though. Pretty much every U/G EDH deck ever runs her now and loses essentially nothing by running her. Her opportunity cost is incredibly low, and it shoots down to zero if she doesn't get answered by the end of her owner's turn. I'm not entirely sure I buy into her being a ubiquitous Clone/Steal/Reanimate target though, as there are a lot of decks that get very little benefit off of her, especially in late game. Once she gets going though, she can be disgusting, and when given a turn or two to set up her text reads something like:

Prophet of Kruphix - 3UG
Creature - Human Circlejerker
At the beginning of each End Step, take an extra turn after this one.
If an opponent would believe he or she would actually get to do something relevant this turn, that opponent skips their turn instead.
2/3
"I don't want to play anymore."
"Good. You don't get to."

Honestly the only things that I can say for sure that I feel about PoKx is that she should have been Mythic and she should have cost 6 mana. She really feels like she should have gone an extra round or two in the WotC testing chamber. I don't quite think this card needs a Ban-It-With-Fire just yet, but it should probably be wise to keep an eye on it and put it under investigation for a few cycles.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 6:15 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
I agree with Joz for once. This card causes the game to grind to a halt, both while the controller takes "extra turns" on each player's end step, and also while everyone scrambles to remove it/clone it/reanimate it. Usually the person who has it out the longest wins the game in an anticlimactic way.

And this has been the case in every playgroup I've seen it in. It looks fun, but then it just wrecks the game.

Also please ban Azami as a general. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 8:23 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I hate the card. I play the card. Not sure how I feel about myself.


Play responsibly. That's my message.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 11:05 pm 
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Joined: 2013-May-05 7:35 am
Age: Wyvern
Location: State College area, Pennsylvania
crokaycete wrote:
Let's ban all cards that are good with other cards. I'm tired of people doing things that let them do other things. It's no fair!

I finally found my signature. :D

Also, I don't understand why you consider Prophet to be bad for the format. Cards that enable awesome plays and broken battlecruiser strategies are to be encouraged. If you use this to stall out the game, or use an infinite combo more efficiently, you're a douche. If you use it to cast Shrieking Drake fifteen times with Primeval Bounty in play in response to token dude alpha striking you, or flashing in a False Prophet then saccing it to save everyone,that's a pretty damn awesome play.

TL;DR: It's only unfun if the person uses it in an unfun way.

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crokaycete wrote:
Let's ban all cards that are good with other cards. I'm tired of people doing things that let them do other things. It's no fair!

intreped wrote:
No, it's fine. Just pay 5 mana. Now post the same joke 4 more times.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 11:39 pm 

Joined: 2010-Sep-11 12:19 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
GreenMunchkin wrote:

TL;DR: It's only unfun if the person uses it in an unfun way.


And that is the majority of its use, right there.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-25 11:41 pm 

Joined: 2013-Mar-20 1:38 pm
Age: Drake
Prophet is like tooth and nail. With great power comes great responsibility, but the decision is largely at deckbuilding. I'll address your points in reverse order.

Number 7 is where it all falls apart. I can use primeval titan responsibly. I have, did, and it was never a problem. If clones were probable, I held it. People with clones have every right to kill me with my own cards. You'll notice that primordial titan lasted in the format awhile. It got banned when quantity of players flooded the format over quality and they didn't get this concept.

Sylvan primordial has the problem that in a multiplayer game, 1 or 2 players have must-answer cards while another one is mana screwed too often. You are forced to make the right play of wrecking a guy over must. This is not remotely the same as playing prophet on theme and people having a good time.

Number 6 (and 4) has been doable for years. Teferi plus seedborn does it in the same colors. The format didn't collapse. Obviously 2 card combos are different, but what it does isn't new. See rest to why this doesn't hold up.

Number 5 speaks volumes. At this point, edrazi are expensive to buy, are frequently viewed as douche cards, and thus not well liked by a lot of people. If they are all over the place, you aren't playing the same game as the rest of us. There are multiple people that can cast eldrazi and prophet alike that I expect fun to follow. I play with people that 'get' it though.

Number 3. She mostly gets used when it is on theme and by people that respect great power comes with great responsibility when it is used. I see plenty of decks that don't use it even though it could go in the deck. Your point is as anecdotal as mine, but I seem to have social contract on my side since prophet isn't a problem. Sorry you play with douchebags bro.

Number 2. She mostly gets used when it is on theme and by people that respect great power comes with great responsibility when it is used. Again, I see plenty of decks that don't. Your point is as anecdotal as mine. Repeated because there is no uptick in blue/green decks over this card.

Number 1. It is in ramp and draw colors. What price is fair? In my opinion, it was stupid of WOTC to print it, but this is our new reality. Dealing with this stuff offers up huge cans of comparative worms. This card compares most to tooth and nail, not the banned cards you mentioned. Sorry your player base is made of douches, but those of us that can handle it shouldn't have to pay for your group's inability to be decent human beings.


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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-26 2:20 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Heh, not a player in our meta at all. There's lots of copies around but I think we're just at the right power-level point to avoid all the shenanigans.

The biggest pain right now, and who has been for a couple of months, is by far Gray Merchant of Asphodel. He's really choking the format here to "have a means of stopping reanimation spells or lose". Even stopping the life-gain is only half the battle, you have to stop the life-loss. Once there's one in play everyone is jumping on for a ride. I'm pretty sick of it now.

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-26 3:12 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-02 10:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I remember the days when someone played a Seedborn Muse or a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir and the whole table was trying to find a way to kill it before the other came out. Prophet is both of them in one :(

I hate it, I hate wat it does for the guys that love it; "hey look at me, I have a live lighthouse chronologist"

But I do very much disagree with Joz that it's worse than PT or SP. Even when killed these green fatties leave the player with the advantage. Prophet doesn't. Yes you can respond to Prophet getting killed, but no more than that. As for it's cost, Joz has a point that it's cheap. I would have put it at 7 mana rather than 5, but that doesn't seem to matter to much. A Prophet on turn 4 doesn't really do all that much (yes I know it does when you have the God Hand). A Prophet on turn 7 IS nuts. And I we as a group can't kill it on turn 7, as much as I hate to admit it, we deserve to die.

Annoying: Yes
Uninspired: More than running Zealous Conscripts in a deck with Kiki-Jiki
Banworthy: No

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 Post subject: Re: Lets talk about...Prophet of Kuphrix
AgePosted: 2014-Feb-26 6:09 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
zimagic wrote:
Once there's one in play everyone is jumping on for a ride. I'm pretty sick of it now.

Everyone in your group plays enough black to make it worth stealing/copying? That sounds awfully skewed.

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