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 Post subject: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-19 2:35 pm 

Joined: 2017-Mar-19 2:06 pm
Age: Hatchling
As an avid edh player, I believe since Commanders can no longer be shuffled into your library, unless a player let's it, the clone rule for Legendary creatures should go back to the way it is written for all other formats.
Reasons below:
1. Commanders no longer can be tucked or shuffled into a library, unless specified by the controlling player.
A. This is one less removal EDH players have to worry about.
2. No other format is given an exception to the rules of mtg. Card text takes precedence.
A. There is at least one card in magic that negates the legendary rule...of there wasn't, then an argument for merging the Legendary Rule would seem more plausible.
3. The extra 2 colorless mana is designed to let you resurrect your General...wasn't that Fair enough?
Alternate Solution:
1. Why not allow clones to kill all Legendary creatures as they always have, and of a Commander is cloned he will still die, but....and this is the big solution...You don't add the 2 extra colorless mana to your commanders cost unless an actual copy, not a clone, kills them.
This means you abide by the Legendary Rule, but don't get stuck with high cost Commanders for clones...I believe Commanders not being tucked is a Huge Win for EDH players, but changing the Legendary Rule for this one format almost makes it sound like you're not happy with the Rules..
It would be different if this was allowed in all formats...I.e. Suddenly Mana Burn was in effect for Type 2 but not Type 1.....

Please give this some thought and comment if you like the idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-19 10:38 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
You're conflating tuck and the legend rule in a way I don't understand. In any case, I don't think the Legend rule was changed due to commander; it was as part of a general move by WotC to limit incidental interactions between players (see also: how Slivers have changed mechanically). In addition, the rules don't make a distinction between clones, token copies, and actual cards, so as proposed your suggestion doesn't work.

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Last edited by Spectrar Ghost on 2017-Mar-19 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-19 10:48 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
Clones did not always kill Legends. I have seen the Legend rules change about 4 or so times during my Magic playing career. At one time you would only kill your Clone when it copied a Legend. I don't believe that currently EDH has its own Legendary rule?

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-20 12:28 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Beckroad wrote:
As an avid edh player, I believe since Commanders can no longer be shuffled into your library, unless a player let's it, the clone rule for Legendary creatures should go back to the way it is written for all other formats.


There are no special rules about cloning in Commander. They are currently the "way it is written for all other formats."

The rule I suspect you are thinking of was a change to the rules of Magic in general which meant that the Legend rule only looked at permanents you control. That happened, hmm, four years ago? It's been a while.

I don't think Commander has ever had a rule specific to clones.


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-20 12:30 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Correct, there is no Commander-specific Legendary rule, unless you count the fact that a Clone can't copy "commanderness."

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-20 12:12 pm 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Once upon a time, blue clone cards were too versatile in that they doubled as removal for generals/legendary creatures that blue found itself unable to deal with. (Ex. Thrun, the Last Troll)

Now that things make sense, blue doesn't effectively have access to a commander removal spell that gets around hexproof/shroud/pro-blue.


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-20 12:20 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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crimsonwings3689 wrote:
Once upon a time, blue clone cards were too versatile in that they doubled as removal for generals/legendary creatures that blue found itself unable to deal with. (Ex. Thrun, the Last Troll)

Now that things make sense, blue doesn't effectively have access to a commander removal spell that gets around hexproof/shroud/pro-blue.

That's true... but it's not a change the RC made or specific to commander. The legend rule works the same way in all formats.

Beckroad wrote:
As an avid edh player, I believe since Commanders can no longer be shuffled into your library, unless a player let's it, the clone rule for Legendary creatures should go back to the way it is written for all other formats.

As stated repeatedly above, EDH uses the standard legend rule that all formats do. You can no longer use a clone in standard to kill an opposing legendary creature, and indeed have not been able to for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-20 4:41 pm 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
Age: Drake
Sounds like this person is either:
A) Is getting trolled/lied to by their group
B) Saw an old post thinking it was new (and somehow thought it was EDH only)
C) Is very confused

Not sure which. I hope they respond just for clarity sake.

In any case, seeing as how the original question seems to have been covered pretty thoroughly, I opened two MM17 boxes. Roughly 30 signets (3-4 of 8 different signets but no Azorius or Orzhav) 7 Path to Exile and 8 Spell Pierce (zero Serum Visions or Might of Old Krosa) What's up with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-21 6:54 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Necrachilles wrote:
In any case, seeing as how the original question seems to have been covered pretty thoroughly, I opened two MM17 boxes. Roughly 30 signets (3-4 of 8 different signets but no Azorius or Orzhav) 7 Path to Exile and 8 Spell Pierce (zero Serum Visions or Might of Old Krosa) What's up with that?

I've heard of other people -- two opening one box (case?) each, and having *very* similar set of foils (not sure if it was common only or all foils.)

Seems there's some randomization issues with this printing/collation.


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-22 1:55 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
While this makes sense for a playgroup who agrees to it, I find it to be something of a poor idea. My main General, Ephara, God of the Polis, and similarly passive Generals who rely on their indestructibility to get any work done (like Sapling and Athreos) get inordinately punished (similar to pre-Tuck Rule commander.)

Which leads to simply wonder, which Generals are such a problem that the old Legend rule fixes them when you play Phantasmal Image and Phyrexian Metamorph? Any of the Generals that might come to mind either don't care about getting tossed into the CZ, or are just Generals that I might simply choose not to participate in a game with (like Jhoira or Zur,) simply because those Generals require the entire table coming down on them from the beginning- drastically warping any sense of real tension the game could get from having one player massively ahead immediately- and the coalition having to stomp them and then assess the damages.

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Last edited by Mr Degradation on 2017-Mar-22 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-22 5:27 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
I think Uril used to be the poster-child for "my blue deck can't possibly compete unless clones are allowed to be general removal". Not that I agree or that it's a good argument, but it's one I heard a lot. We'll just ignore the fact that Phantasmal Image + Sun Titan = You never have your general again. Because that's fair.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-23 3:27 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
We'll just ignore the fact that Phantasmal Image + Sun Titan = You never have your general again. Because that's fair.

I mean, that's about as fair as Tsabo Tavoc or Visara the Dreadful, which are... unfair in your opinion?


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-23 5:03 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
MrCool wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
We'll just ignore the fact that Phantasmal Image + Sun Titan = You never have your general again. Because that's fair.

I mean, that's about as fair as Tsabo Tavoc or Visara the Dreadful, which are... unfair in your opinion?

Shroud or hexproof or indestructible handle those two quite well. Image gets around that quite handily.


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-23 5:12 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
MrCool wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
We'll just ignore the fact that Phantasmal Image + Sun Titan = You never have your general again. Because that's fair.

I mean, that's about as fair as Tsabo Tavoc or Visara the Dreadful, which are... unfair in your opinion?

Tsabo Tavoc and Visara can be thwarted by any source of shroud, hexproof, protection from black (/red), indestructible, etc. Plus they have tap abilities, so you probably have a turn to solve them. Also Sun Titan and Phantasmal Image are cards that are WAY more likely to show up in decks, making abusing their interaction with the old legend rules essentially free - it was something you could do with cards you were going to run anyways because they're just flat-out good.

So the answer to your question is no. I do not consider Tavoc or Visara unfair. I feel differently about giving blue unanswerable anti-commander removal spells. Thankfully that's not how it works anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-24 4:03 am 

Joined: 2017-Mar-19 2:06 pm
Age: Hatchling
Animar, soul of elements, this is seemingly one of the hardest generals to get rid of since they can no longer be tucked or cloned, protection from white and black, I'm limited to beast within, and red. Bouncing Animar is an option to remove the counters, but removal over bounce is better, since I shouldn't be catering to 1 general in my deck build.
I was misinformed on the Legendary Rule, someone who claimed to be working towards a Judge, gave me the run down above.
I particularly feel red is the most underwhelming color in magic. I don't run many generals with red because the builds tend to be very heavy in the other colors since red lacks draw and Mana ramp.
Board sweeps also help but they once again affect everyone and animar is a low casting cost General so constantly sees play even after he's destroyed. Maybe it is just this one General giving me a hard time but there isn't enough green removal and now that blue is almost out of the question, I guess I'm asking for suggestions in the green black white or blue fields for help.


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