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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-24 5:11 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
MrCool wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
We'll just ignore the fact that Phantasmal Image + Sun Titan = You never have your general again. Because that's fair.

I mean, that's about as fair as Tsabo Tavoc or Visara the Dreadful, which are... unfair in your opinion?

Tsabo Tavoc and Visara can be thwarted by any source of shroud, hexproof, protection from black (/red), indestructible, etc. Plus they have tap abilities, so you probably have a turn to solve them. Also Sun Titan and Phantasmal Image are cards that are WAY more likely to show up in decks, making abusing their interaction with the old legend rules essentially free - it was something you could do with cards you were going to run anyways because they're just flat-out good.

So the answer to your question is no. I do not consider Tavoc or Visara unfair. I feel differently about giving blue unanswerable anti-commander removal spells. Thankfully that's not how it works anymore.

Most legendary creatures don't have shroud/hexproof/indestructible/pro-black. The amount of playable cards that do give those are not in numbers to guarantee you are even combating the likes of Visara more than 'infrequently' (unless you are a player that tutors for Greaves). If your commander doesn't have those abilities naturally, you have about the same chances of getting a hexproof enabler as someone does a haste enabler, anyway.

Sun Titan and Image only happens once a turn (excluding a turn where Titan is down already and doesn't have summoning sickness, with Image in hand), and combat is basically sorcery speed, so you still 'probably have a turn to solve them'.

I don't think it's a worrisome lock since it's a two-card combo in two colors, that's probably not always the best plan (unless your commander deserves it), and when those colors also have crap like Declaration of Naught, Nevermore, Meddling Mage, and Null Chamber.

But i don't think blue copy spells as removal ever made sense, and it feels totally fine that each player gets one each of their legends if they want. Not arguing for reversal of the rule.

Beckroad wrote:
Animar, soul of elements, this is seemingly one of the hardest generals to get rid of since they can no longer be tucked or cloned, protection from white and black, I'm limited to beast within, and red
I particularly feel red is the most underwhelming color in magic.

You would probably be better off starting a topic on how to deal with Animar/protections, and list your decks and meta.
But i quoted what i did, because as your bad luck would have it, red is exceptional at hating stuff like Animar, partly because Animar doesn't have pro-red and partly because red has some good uncounterable removal. Even stuff like Lightning Bolt can be totally playable.
Volcanic Fallout[card], [card]Combust, Rending Volley, and Sudden Shock are really exceptional at what they do, and they could find a home in some of your decks or your meta's decks if Animar is too oppressive. They are narrow if Animar is the only problem, though.

Then there's always the 'talk to them' approach if that applies.


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-24 5:36 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Beckroad wrote:
Animar, soul of elements, this is seemingly one of the hardest generals to get rid of since they can no longer be tucked or cloned, protection from white and black, I'm limited to beast within, and red. Bouncing Animar is an option to remove the counters, but removal over bounce is better, since I shouldn't be catering to 1 general in my deck build.
I was misinformed on the Legendary Rule, someone who claimed to be working towards a Judge, gave me the run down above.
I particularly feel red is the most underwhelming color in magic. I don't run many generals with red because the builds tend to be very heavy in the other colors since red lacks draw and Mana ramp.
Board sweeps also help but they once again affect everyone and animar is a low casting cost General so constantly sees play even after he's destroyed. Maybe it is just this one General giving me a hard time but there isn't enough green removal and now that blue is almost out of the question, I guess I'm asking for suggestions in the green black white or blue fields for help.


The first thing a player has to understand about Animar, is that it doesn't really do anything on it's own- it relies on pushing out better threats at a discount- most of which are mono-colored. You can actually ignore Animar long enough for wipes in most scenarios.

Chainer's Edict, Devour Flesh, Barter in Blood, Far // Away, Aether Snap, Black Sun's Zenith so on, and so forth really slow down Animar in B

Renounce the Guilds is an absolute Animar hose- Rule of Law effects make Animar ignorable for a couple of turns- I also see Animar frequently be the target of Nevermore or Meddling Mage- with some players going out of their way to protect it from anything short of Krosan Grip. Animar is just generally weak to wraths, so W tends to be a pretty good choice against it.

Reality Shift, Into the Roil, a timely Pongify, Curse of the Swine and any sort of mass bounce sends Animar to the stone age. Blue also gets Prodigal Sorcerer, Thornwind Faeries etc. Which means that the Animar player HAS to follow Animar with a creature cast- but having double Tim usually means Animar is irrelevant.

Green gets fight cards, which are in-general way better in EDH than in other formats. Animar is particularly weak to fights because it starts small and takes time to build up- which is the time to stop it from getting out of control.

As for the assertion about the colors- Remember you're playing with vintage cards. Red is often stronger than Blue in EDH- but in General, all of the colors are powerful, but G and B are the most forgiving. W tends to need a color to tag team with, and up until a couple years ago, R was in the same boat- but most commanders are multi-color- so that's kindof a non-issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-24 11:24 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Beckroad wrote:
I shouldn't be catering to 1 general in my deck build.

I wanna pull this line out -- because that's totally false.

What you're doing is metagaming. If your metagame has a card (a commander or any other card causing issues) that is causing you problems, then altering your deck so that it can not just fold to the card isn't "catering to 1 card" -- it's called metagaming. Adapting to your local metagame.

The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.

In this format, taking a step back and looking at how you can alter your deck to compete with another deck/strategy is a good way to find new cards that can become useful in general ways that you may not have thought of before.

As an example: One player in my group had made a Teeg deck. Yup, obnoxious, and the first few times it hosed the other decks as we were all used to playing big spells for our quality plays. But Teeg forced us to look at other creatures with ETB abilities, and among the spells that I tried out was Strangling Soot. Look at that card -- it kills Teeg, and can do it twice. I played it, and found out that in games without Teeg it still is a high-quality card. I hasn't left that deck despite Teeg no longer having been played in at least 2 years.

Without a player playing Teeg, I'm not sure I would have looked at that card and given it a chance. But there's lots of quality creatures it kills off.

Now -- there is certainly a point where a single card can cause too much shift in too many cards .. but I don't see Animar hitting that point. (for reference, cards like Recurring Nightmare and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn were ones like that.)


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-26 11:07 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Beckroad wrote:
Maybe it is just this one General giving me a hard time but there isn't enough green removal and now that blue is almost out of the question, I guess I'm asking for suggestions in the green black white or blue fields for help.


Have you heard of shock? Handles animar quite well. Oh you let him untap and now he has a bunch of counters? Good thing he also played all those creatures into your blasphemous act or chain reaction

Alternately I would like to point out that tuck effects function the same as removal spells now. It's not like the player gets to just ignore the effect, instead of going to the library the general must go back to the command zone.

There is also colourless removal like Brittle Effigy, scour from existence and spine of ish sah, plus the newly reprinted arachnus web if you just want animar to be unable to attack.

Animar is cheap as you say, so removing him is not always the best choice, instead just mind control take possession or blatant thievery him. Then you get the bonus and your opponent has to kill animar or the enchantment to get him back.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-27 1:14 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Beckroad wrote:
I shouldn't be catering to 1 general in my deck build.

I wanna pull this line out -- because that's totally false.

What you're doing is metagaming. If your metagame has a card (a commander or any other card causing issues) that is causing you problems, then altering your deck so that it can not just fold to the card isn't "catering to 1 card" -- it's called metagaming. Adapting to your local metagame.

The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.

In this format, taking a step back and looking at how you can alter your deck to compete with another deck/strategy is a good way to find new cards that can become useful in general ways that you may not have thought of before.

As an example: One player in my group had made a Teeg deck. Yup, obnoxious, and the first few times it hosed the other decks as we were all used to playing big spells for our quality plays. But Teeg forced us to look at other creatures with ETB abilities, and among the spells that I tried out was Strangling Soot. Look at that card -- it kills Teeg, and can do it twice. I played it, and found out that in games without Teeg it still is a high-quality card. I hasn't left that deck despite Teeg no longer having been played in at least 2 years.

Without a player playing Teeg, I'm not sure I would have looked at that card and given it a chance. But there's lots of quality creatures it kills off.

Now -- there is certainly a point where a single card can cause too much shift in too many cards .. but I don't see Animar hitting that point. (for reference, cards like Recurring Nightmare and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn were ones like that.)


This is very quotable!

Gaddock Teeg is an example of a General that has a hateful ability, but shouldn't really completely shut off any one player if they build their deck knowing that he's around (playing Nekrataal-like cards is usually a pretty good place to start in most EDH decks anyways.)

But, then there are extremes like Jhoira of the Ghitu, where a General choice doesn't read "slow it down for a fair game" like Animar. And if those cheese a player or the playgroup off enough, then the best choice is to simply not play with them, because even trying to change the rules doesn't stop Jhoira from turning EDH into a game of archenemy. Sure, you can shut out Jhoira with a timely Voidmage Husher- or similar trick, but she has habit of putting the game on a mean clock- and if any player decides to turn on a player they perceive as a larger threat (usually a newer player-) then the game gets pretty lop-sided in Jhoira's favor (the Trade Secrets principal.)

Teeg, like the indestructible Generals used to be one of the many cards that got hosed too hard by the former Legend rule. But if a General like Teeg causes your group too much duress, to a degree where metagaming doesn't work- It's also a good route to just ask the player to put a card like Teeg into their 99 until the group is comfortable enough with it to let it have the command zone again.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-28 5:37 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
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Sovarius wrote:
Most legendary creatures don't have shroud/hexproof/indestructible/pro-black.

And blue still shouldn't have an unstoppable answer for all those abilities. And thankfully now it doesn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-29 9:35 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
Most legendary creatures don't have shroud/hexproof/indestructible/pro-black.

And blue still shouldn't have an unstoppable answer for all those abilities. And thankfully now it doesn't.

Agreed, blue is strong enough in EDH, it doesn't need a perfect answer to every other commander in the game.

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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 12:04 pm 

Joined: 2017-May-09 1:04 pm
Age: Wyvern
Beckroad wrote:
Bouncing Animar is an option to remove the counters, but removal over bounce is better, since I shouldn't be catering to 1 general in my deck build.


Blue has two really good kill spells for commander, in a similar spirit to beast within, called Pongify and Rapid Hybridization. I suggest you find a spot for them in your blue decks that don't have removal. They are pretty essential.


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 Post subject: Re: Clone commander rule reversed
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 1:39 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
page04z wrote:
Beckroad wrote:
Bouncing Animar is an option to remove the counters, but removal over bounce is better, since I shouldn't be catering to 1 general in my deck build.


Blue has two really good kill spells for commander, in a similar spirit to beast within, called Pongify and Rapid Hybridization. I suggest you find a spot for them in your blue decks that don't have removal. They are pretty essential.

Hour of Need and Reality Shift are not terrible either.

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