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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-30 4:33 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
i play psyclonic rift for the art :)


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-30 8:16 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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Nigerian Prince wrote:
My Zadra deck scoops to CR, I know it's because of the way the deck is built, and I accept that as an inherent weakness to the deck. Some games I just can't recover quick enough, I lose to repeated mass bounce/removal, and that's fine, i don't need to win to enjoy a game.


Several, you said you have several decks which scoop to CR, you have almost mentioned one card, a far cry from several decks.

So quite aside from the fact that "Zadra" is not a magic card, even if I make the logical leap that you meant Zada, that is not a deck type, that is the commander. What is the game plan that simply loses to CR?

You are playing red, so play a few reiterateeffects and a few wheel effects. When you begin to suspect the opponent has rift, fire off a reforge the soul and make them use it out of sequence. Rift is good most of the time, but if the caster doesn't get the first action afterward then it's a lot worse for them.

It sounds like your deck is as weak to rift as it would be to planar cleansing and austere command, so I dont really see how it is an argument against rift as much as an admission that your deck has a fatal flaw which you choose not to protect against.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-30 11:16 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
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Carthain wrote:
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
The point I was trying to make is that the card gets around all forms of protection a player can muster on the board.

So... look for other ways to protect your board. I mean... protecting your board from everything should be hard!

I've not heard of "answers" proposed such as: "If in white, try Ghostway and any variants that flicker and return at EOT." or "if in black, try to be able to react with sac effects & gravepact effects to hurt the rift player's board." These are things that are out of the box.

Also - you're complaining about the power level of the card. Very few cards are banned on power level alone (it's usually power level after Commander specific rules have been applied.) So, if you want it banned, you need something other than "Look how powerful it is!" because it doesn't just win games on its own; and that's kind of a summary of what I feel of your arguments.


You see, protecting "everything" should be hard, and often is, but your own argument for Rift is that while powerful, you can help mitigate your losses by playing a conditional board blink to keep your creatures in play or run removal that is often sorcery speed and doesn't necessarily target... sooo, basically bring some neosporin, for the stab/bullet wound you're about to receive. It'll help a bit, but you're still going to get the worst of it. Rift is basically a one sided Upheaval that doesn't touch lands. Upheaval is banned because of what it does, it restarts the game. Rift does a damn fine job of that with the exception of you being able to "maybe" build back up and "maybe" be able to survive long enough to get back in the game. All the while the Rift player goes on as if nothing happened and everyone else forgot they were playing a social game for a varying amount of turns.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-30 5:59 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
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specter404 wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
My Zadra deck scoops to CR, I know it's because of the way the deck is built, and I accept that as an inherent weakness to the deck. Some games I just can't recover quick enough, I lose to repeated mass bounce/removal, and that's fine, i don't need to win to enjoy a game.


Several, you said you have several decks which scoop to CR, you have almost mentioned one card, a far cry from several decks.

So quite aside from the fact that "Zadra" is not a magic card, even if I make the logical leap that you meant Zada, that is not a deck type, that is the commander. What is the game plan that simply loses to CR?

You are playing red, so play a few reiterateeffects and a few wheel effects. When you begin to suspect the opponent has rift, fire off a reforge the soul and make them use it out of sequence. Rift is good most of the time, but if the caster doesn't get the first action afterward then it's a lot worse for them.

It sounds like your deck is as weak to rift as it would be to planar cleansing and austere command, so I dont really see how it is an argument against rift as much as an admission that your deck has a fatal flaw which you choose not to protect against.


I have several janky decks that are devastated by CR, but, again, I am aware that they are that vulnerable because of the way they are built, and I accept that. I might have exaggerated a bit,
I don't just scoop to CR, but there are situations where there's nothing really I can do after CR resolves, because I just can't rebuild fast enough. Zada, Hedron grinder is one of those decks, and it loses badly to CR if I can't red elemental blast it or something like that, because in mono red there just aren't that many tutor effects to find protection, or Ghostway effects. Sometimes you just wanna build a deck that does something really cool, but you can't make it very strong, and then you accept that the deck will only do well in half of the games you play with it. I guess I could build only decks that can handle everything, but games would become quite boring if you always see the same commanders / color combinations around.

To clarify, I don't think Rift should be banned or anything, I just don't like the card because it's too easy. I don't like cards like Insurrection for the same reason, Capsize at the very least needs some work to get to inf mana before it becomes lame.

And no, also again, you cannot simply put Cyclonic Rift at the same level as cards as Austere Command or Planar Cleansing when the reset button is onesided, at instant speed, and only needs one blue mana so only requires the absolute minimum of dedication to blue.

Anyway, OP asked for reasons why people play it, I gave the reasons I hear around here, I don't hate people for playing it, but I never will.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-31 12:04 am 
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Many argue that mass destruction like Wrath of God is symmetrical. Those arguments remind me a lot of how back in the day people said the same thing about Balance. The things is that you don't play such cards if you don't expect to get the better end of the deal. This is either because you expect to be better at recovery or because they don't hit you as hard. Even when you're just playing mass removal defensively because you're under presure you still get the better end of the deal because you live rather than die that turn (and if they can kill you their board is probably better).

Nigerian Prince wrote:
pi wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
Most popular answers:

1. to screw over X (or any other player)


I always play to win, I find it hard to imagine that your most common answer is one that doesn't seem to match with trying to win. If someone is going to specifically play cards to screw other players then I would wonder if that person's way of approaching EDH isn't the problem? I mean, if you want to screw over another player there are many, many cards to do so with. Using Rift is then just a symptom. Basically this goes directly against the “Create games that everyone will love to remember, not the ones you'd like to forget.” philosophy of the format, you may want to ask those players how this fits with the philosophy in their view.


I admit, not a lot of philosophors around the table here. It's kind of a group dynamic here (and I hear that a lot of groups have this) that the high and educated values of gentlemanship are thrown overboard after a couple of games and are replaced by feelings of spite and vengeance :) Doesn't make the games any less fun and memorable, though.


Agreed :).

Nigerian Prince wrote:
pi wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
2. to clear the board for an alpha strike


How is this player getting to the point where they are capable of alpha striking every other player provided their defenses get taken out? Why do you trust your defenses to hold this player off when you can see they have blue in their deck? This seems like an obvious situation where mass removal should really have been played by someone long ago. In any case, when this happens you now know that this player has the capability to suddenly get through your defenses, so next time you don't let him build up this far. At least the game should end soon after this play and you should be ready to start another in which you can apply this new found knowledge.


Well, if you have 15 mana available and your opponents have no board, you don't really need that much of a board position to get your commander through for 21 or to pump your creatures enough to shoot some one out of the game. The CR player doesn't end the game with the pre-CR board position, but he sure can after untapping with empty boards across the table.


Ah, you meant killing a single player. Yes, this might happen. I find that often lands like Mishra's Factory or Maze of Ith make sure you are not the one being attacked. If everyone has them it becomes harder to avoid being attacked, but, that also means that the player could face the revenge of a lot of man-lands coming his way, so he may not feel comfortable attacking with enough to take somebody out. Also many people would be motivated to work together to prevent the attack if there are multiple Mazes too. This is definitely a diplomatic situation where first you want to avoid being the player being attacked, then, if you are want to work with others to take the CR player down a peg and finally work together to put the hurt on him. If CR really is as disliked as you suggest it shouldn't be too hard to convince the other players to go along.

Nigerian Prince wrote:
pi wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
3. to keep me alive, X could kill me if he attacks me


Can you really blame someone for wanting to stay in the game? It's bound to be fun for them to still keep a chance at winning? I assume this includes the situation where they have waited for the attack to be declared as well.

I see it played this way most of the time, particularly when the attack has been declared.


Offcourse you can't blame some one for stayin' alive, but there are lots of less 'nuke the whole table' options. Aetherize - type cards, Fog effects, spot removal, damage redirection, ...


Sure, but that's working on the assumption that people want to not play CR. I can't be surprised that people use a better option if it's available. People like efficiency in their cards, the options you mention just wouldn't be an alternative to CR in my eyes (Rout or even Starstorm could be in my view because they hit so much more).

Nigerian Prince wrote:
pi wrote:
Nigerian Prince wrote:
4. because I can't think of another way to solve a problematic situation on the board (usually this is about a Sigarda enchantress voltron deck or a Krenko combo deck)


Are you saying they should not deal with problematic situations on the board? If they know their deck is weak to such situations then of course they are going to play cards that help them against it.

I can certainly understand some aggravation when it comes to the card: it will indeed hit innocent bystanders, but in that sense it's like every other mass removal effect. Mass removal is so prevalent in Magic that you really should have some way to deal with it or recover from it. If you prefer to build decks that ignore it you should really be looking for a meta where it is house banned or infrequently played for other reasons. Maybe you shouldn't be playing as many mana rocks as you do, perhaps you should lower your curve, perhaps Zadra just isn't strong enough to make work. It sounds a bit like you would expect your decks to be viable in your meta the way you currently build them and then get aggravated when cards get played that you didn't prepare for, expecting those cards to be removed from the meta rather than adjusting your decks to deal with them.


This arguement keeps coming back... CR isn't "just another piece of mass removal", and can't be compared with something like a Wrath of God. Its one-sided and instant speed and hits multiple types of permanents, name any one card that does what CR does.

My Zadra deck scoops to CR, I know it's because of the way the deck is built, and I accept that as an inherent weakness to the deck. Some games I just can't recover quick enough, I lose to repeated mass bounce/removal, and that's fine, i don't need to win to enjoy a game.

I guess I could keep stuff at hand to recover from a CR, but that would mean that I have to hold manarocks, creatures, enchantments and maybe a PW in addition to the usual instant and sorcerie answers you keep for the right moment. Better make sure I have a Reliquary Tower all the freaking time, and God forbid I would play spells, gotta keep my board lousy so CR-players aren't invited to bounce it all.


Consider the argument I started this post with. Honestly I rarely if ever see any mass removal be symatrical. Now I will grant you that many are less lobsided than CR is, but, many combinations of several cards are worse. I can understand the frustration though, but to me it just doesn't feel different from repeated mass removal, something that is pretty easy to put together even if you'd need multiple cards to do it. Asking for any 1 card that does the same seems to miss the point of the discussion: due to tutoring, combinations of cards can be put together easy enough to accomplish similar results. If you really must have one card: how about Sun Quan? He allows for the same kind of alpha strike.

The fortunate side effect of CR bouncing is that you don't need to keep those cards in hand: they'll be conveniently returned there anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-31 1:59 am 
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crimsonwings3689 wrote:
You see, protecting "everything" should be hard, and often is, but your own argument for Rift is that while powerful, you can help mitigate your losses by playing a conditional board blink to keep your creatures in play or run removal that is often sorcery speed and doesn't necessarily target...

What sorcery speed removal do you think have I suggested? 'cuz I've suggested none of that. If you're just going to misunderstand and just assume that something dumb is what is being proposed instead of asking for clarification -- it shows a bit about how you think, and a bit as to why you can't cope with the card being played.

crimsonwings3689 wrote:
Rift is basically a one sided Upheaval that doesn't touch lands. Upheaval is banned because of what it does, it restarts the game. Rift does a damn fine job of that with the exception of you being able to "maybe" build back up and "maybe" be able to survive long enough to get back in the game.

While the comparison about what they do is similar -- in practice, not resetting the lands is a huge difference. If you can't see that, I don't think you'll ever see why Rift isn't the problem you claim it to be.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-31 2:07 am 
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Think rift is bad? Try fighting through Kederekt Leviathan and Restoration Angel.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-31 2:37 am 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Think rift is bad? Try fighting through Kederekt Leviathan and Restoration Angel.


I like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-31 2:41 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
What sorcery speed removal do you think have I suggested? 'cuz I've suggested none of that. If you're just going to misunderstand and just assume that something dumb is what is being proposed instead of asking for clarification -- it shows a bit about how you think, and a bit as to why you can't cope with the card being played.


Most mass creature destruction is sorcery speed and mass forced sacrifice effects are in short supply and usually sorcery speed... even then its usually not targetted removal. You could maybe hurt a voltron more easily withthat sort of retaliatory play, but it's far from guaranteed. You proposed cards like Ghostway to protect your creatures in response to Rift or a forced sac effect, both of which are outside the box thinking for sure, but it still doesn't address the state it leaves everyone in minus the rift player. Without a board to speak of.

Carthain wrote:
While the comparison about what they do is similar -- in practice, not resetting the lands is a huge difference. If you can't see that, I don't think you'll ever see why Rift isn't the problem you claim it to be.



Resetting lands is a huge difference I admit, but the comparison of how polarizing the card can be is closer than you realize/want to admit. A sorcery speed 6 drop that resets the entire game is awful, but a 7 mana instant that effectively restarts the game for all but one player is huge, and terrible. You Rift, you get to keep everything you've worked for and protected for multiple turns while everyone else is scrounging to rebuild and find out what they're discarding at EOT.

In Garruk's Wake, one sided, 9 freaking mana, and you get to keep anything that's indestructible, artifacts and enchantments. So it does suck to be on the receiving end, but it's unlikely that you'll have to contend with much more than the current Wake players field, it doesn't negate 5+ turns of effort, and effects like Propaganda/Ghostly Prison/Lightmine Field/etc. Are still in play and can make a difference.

Also, the difference between recovering from something like Wake vs Rift is night and day. I also noticed that you hadn't mentioned the values of the card as I had earlier. Do you consider a bump in rarity from Vandalblast at a 5 mana sorcery at uncommon to blow up opposing artifacts somehow justifies the difference for only 2 colorless more in Cyclonic Rift? That 2 mana and a rarity bump justifies an instant speed reset that affects all opposing nonland permanents vs the 1 that Vandalblast can touch? If your answer is yes, then I fear your assessment of what cards could and should cost for their effects is skewed.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-31 3:22 am 
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crimsonwings3689 wrote:
effectively restarts the game

No it doesn't. You keep your lands, and that's a big deal. And the cards go to hand. That's a drawback for the rift player, in comparison to sweepers that actually send things to the graveyard. Granted yard recursion is common and widely played, but it takes more effort than simply re-casting things. I've seen peoples entire boards come back the turn after a rift was cast. Usually I don't even see people discard - they drop any mana rocks they had back out, then use those to play one or two more things, and keep on truckin'.

With Upheaval, you float a bunch of mana, bounce everything, and then re-cast a bunch of mana rocks and/or threats, leaving everyone else literally re-started and you with a board.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-31 4:45 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I've seen peoples entire boards come back the turn after a rift was cast.

When this happens, rift is very comparable to taking an extra turn. Differences are your opponents get to draw a card and potentially get etb effects, but you played a take an extra turn as an instant.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-31 5:28 am 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
effectively restarts the game

No it doesn't. You keep your lands, and that's a big deal. And the cards go to hand. That's a drawback for the rift player, in comparison to sweepers that actually send things to the graveyard. Granted yard recursion is common and widely played, but it takes more effort than simply re-casting things. I've seen peoples entire boards come back the turn after a rift was cast. Usually I don't even see people discard - they drop any mana rocks they had back out, then use those to play one or two more things, and keep on truckin'.

With Upheaval, you float a bunch of mana, bounce everything, and then re-cast a bunch of mana rocks and/or threats, leaving everyone else literally re-started and you with a board.


To be really fair, Crim's argument seems to reduce to "I shouldn't HAVE to play around Rift", where ours reduces to the "Devil you know" principal. While I'm definitely not wanting to draw conclusions about anybody as a player, it does seem probable that most people who object to rift haven't been involved in playgroups or EDH pre-RTR, where primary blue decks have to rely on things like Temporal Fissure in the Armageddon arms race.

Ontop of that, we may just have different ideas about the sanctity of the banlist itself. The format places emphasis on housebans- so ban worthiness for the official list means something extreme (to be fair though, I'd ban Jhoira, Deadeye Navigator and Top- but the counter-arguments to each of those is super valid- so I just ask playgroups to agree on a list of softbans so we can all be comfortable.)

@Crim-
When I say your deck needs to take 3 rifts, I simply mean that mass bounce effects and flash enablers are super common in EDH. It's just a thing that comes with deck building. You don't want to be especially weak to any kind of major wipe- whether it's Planar Cleansing or Devastation Tide. It will happen, often at instant speed.

@MrCool-
Looking for opportunities to Time Walk opponents is something every color in Magic tries to do- especially with blowout instants.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Mar-31 6:50 am 
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crimsonwings3689 wrote:
Most mass creature destruction is sorcery speed and mass forced sacrifice effects are in short supply and usually sorcery speed...

Never did I say to combat Rift with mass creature destruction. I think it was Sid saying if more of it gets played, then you over-extend less, thus minimizing the impact Rift has.

And "mass forced sacrificed effects" is again nothing I mentioned. I just said to use sacrificed effects (such as those that require a sacrifice as a cost) in order to trigger things like gravepact to try and reduce how much of a board the Rift Player will have once the Rift resolves.

You shouldn't jump to conclusions, as you're missing a lot of help in the suggestions people are giving.

crimsonwings3689 wrote:
You proposed cards like Ghostway to protect your creatures in response to Rift or a forced sac effect, both of which are outside the box thinking for sure, but it still doesn't address the state it leaves everyone in minus the rift player. Without a board to speak of.

I'm sorry... Having all your creatures remain in play (or, blink back into play) after the Rift doesn't count as having a board?

And what's wrong with trying to equalize the asymmetry of the Rift? Make it so it's not as useful for the Rift player to cast?

crimsonwings3689 wrote:
Resetting lands is a huge difference I admit, but the comparison of how polarizing the card can be is closer than you realize/want to admit. A sorcery speed 6 drop that resets the entire game is awful, but a 7 mana instant that effectively restarts the game for all but one player is huge, and terrible.

It doesn't effectively restart the game. That's the jump/assumption you are making that doesn't hold up.

It doesn't "effectively restart the game". Your land drops remain. The cards in hand may be more than 7 (giving you more options than at the start of the game.) You can still cast late-game spells ... something you can't do without a godhand at the start of the game.

crimsonwings3689 wrote:
You Rift, you get to keep everything you've worked for and protected for multiple turns while everyone else is scrounging to rebuild and find out what they're discarding at EOT.

And you've also probably set yourself up as the archenemy -- not something insignificant in a 4 player game.


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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-01 2:14 am 

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Carthain wrote:
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
You Rift, you get to keep everything you've worked for and protected for multiple turns while everyone else is scrounging to rebuild and find out what they're discarding at EOT.

And you've also probably set yourself up as the archenemy -- not something insignificant in a 4 player game.
This is my only issue with Rift- when one player drops it and sets themselves up and I have to watch the one guy at the table still able to pressure the Rifter sit there and durdle because they're afraid of retribution... y'know, because losing the game is better than getting attacked... or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Why do people play Psyclonic Rift?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-02 1:11 am 
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MrCool wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I've seen peoples entire boards come back the turn after a rift was cast.

When this happens, rift is very comparable to taking an extra turn. Differences are your opponents get to draw a card and potentially get etb effects, but you played a take an extra turn as an instant.

That's relying on the idea that your opponents do nothing but simply replay all their stuff. In other words, oftentimes everything your opponents had coming right back is a best case scenario. If they wrath your board and then play only part of what they had, or wrath your board and still replay everything they had or play everything they had plus more, you're coming out potentially worse off than when you started.

Obviously that isn't going to be the case all the time, but it's more frequent than some may want to admit. Cyc Rift is a lot like Insurrection. It's a powerful spell that will sometimes break the game open if conditions are right. Otherwise it's just a big dumb effect.

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