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 Post subject: Taking control of an opponent and exiling his general
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 12:49 am 

Joined: 2017-Apr-21 12:30 am
Age: Egg
Hello everyone,

Hope I'm not beating on a dead horse here but I looked around extensively and found only inconclusive information regarding taking control of an opponent. The cards in question:
Mindslaver, Emrakul the Promised End and Word of Command (and anything else that works in a similar fashion).

Let's say I play Emrakul on my friends (I'll call him Jack) white EDH deck. Then I use swords to plowshares on it. Who, after all, makes the choice on whether or not the command will go back to its command zone? Does the same apply to the other zones (library, hand, grave)?

Official rule says: "If a Commander would be put into a library, hand, graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead."

It does say 'owner', but I'm confused about whether this is an regular player choice (meaning I'd choose) or something like conceding, looking at the sideboard or calling a judge (meaning Jack would get to choose).

The reason I'm asking this is because my community argued endlessly over this before instating a house rule. I'd have no problem with most of the zones, but exiling (and to a certain extent, tucking in the library) really does kill the joy of the format.

It'd be great if someone from the rules comitee could clear this up.


Thanks in advance!

---------


Lastly, a simple doubt: what is Vizier of Many Faces' color identity?
Quote:
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/vizierofmanyfaces.html

I'm wondering if I'll be able to play it on my grixis clones deck.


--------


Also, doesn't hurt to warn the commitee, if you are interested: there's a translation error at the brazilian wizards commander page at http://magic.wizards.com/pt-br/content/commander-format
This part: "Se seu comandante for para o cemitério ou para o exílio, você pode, em vez disso, devolvê-lo para a zona de comando." would be equivalent to the english site phrase "If your commander would be put into your library, hand, graveyard or exile from anywhere, you may return it to your command zone instead.", but it doesn't mention library and hand. People over here are getting confused over this.

Anyway, thanks again!


Last edited by wiredsonic on 2017-Apr-22 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EDH
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 2:51 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
Official ruling is that because you would be in control of their turn and are making all decisions for that player, you can indeed have their commander go into exile. This is because moving the commander back to the command zone is a replacement effect, and a conscious choice of the person running the commander. Normally, they can choose to allow their commander to go into their graveyard, library or exile if they didn't want to put it into the command zone after it's destroyed, exiles, tucked, etc.

Because you're the one controlling their turn, you can exile their commander and opt NOT to use the replacement effect to put it into their command zone. The opponent you're controlling the turn of has exactly ZERO say in anything you do with their turn.

That all being said, it's a super dick move and will probably lose some friends in the worst case, or cause some everlasting grudge in the best of cases.

There are some random, rarely used cards to bring back cards from exile. Most of which are effects from the new Eldrazi that give opponents cards back from exile to get some effect... so while it's not a permanent solution to get rid of a commander, it's damn close.


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 Post subject: Re: EDH
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 3:31 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Here is the relevant rule:
Quote:
714.5. While controlling another player, a player makes all choices and decisions the controlled player is allowed to make or is told to make by the rules or by any objects. This includes choices and decisions about what to play, and choices and decisions called for by spells and abilities.
Example: The controller of another player decides which spells that player casts and what those spells target, and makes any required decisions when those spells resolve.
Example: The controller of another player during his or her turn decides which of that player’s creatures attack, which player or planeswalker each one attacks, what the damage assignment order of the creatures that block them is (if any of the attacking creatures are blocked by multiple creatures), and how those attacking creatures assign their combat damage.

And to be clear, the rule that the controlling player is allowed to make decisions on is this rule:
Quote:
903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owner’s hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.



edit:
wiredsonic wrote:
Lastly, a simple doubt: what is Vizier of Many Faces' color identity?
Quote:
http://mythicspoiler.com/akh/cards/vizierofmanyfaces.html

I'm wondering if I'll be able to play it on my grixis clones deck.

It's blue.
Quote:
903.4. The Commander variant uses color identity to determine what cards can be in a deck with a certain commander. The color identity of a card is the color or colors of any mana symbols in that card’s mana cost or rules text, plus any colors defined by its characteristic-defining abilities (see rule 604.3) or color indicator (see rule 204).
Example: Bosh, Iron Golem is a legendary artifact creature with mana cost {8} and the ability “{3}{R}, Sacrifice an artifact: Bosh, Iron Golem deals damage equal to the sacrificed artifact’s converted mana cost to target creature or player.” Bosh’s color identity is red.


Last edited by MrCool on 2017-Apr-21 6:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: EDH
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 4:38 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
The only decision you don't get to make when taking control of someone's turn is whether or not to concede the game, as this isn't a choice inherent to taking a turn but playing the game as a whole.

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 Post subject: Re: EDH
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 4:54 am 

Joined: 2012-Jun-07 5:38 pm
Age: Drake
niheloim wrote:
The only decision you don't get to make when taking control of someone's turn is whether or not to concede the game, as this isn't a choice inherent to taking a turn but playing the game as a whole.


^ This.

Wording it in the way that you did (MrCool) would suggest that the "owner" (player 1) and not the player in control of that person's turn (player 2) would get to make the decision of what happens to player 1's commander when being exiled. This is simply not true.

If player 2 controls player 1 during player 1's turn, it is player 2 that makes the decision for player 1. Short of conceding, they can waste spells, tap out mana with no intention to use it, swing in against unfavorable blocks/opponent's board states, sacrifice creatures/permanents as part of costs that are available, opt not to drop a land for the turn, pay as much life for effects that are available, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: EDH
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-21 6:39 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
crimsonwings3689 wrote:
Wording it in the way that you did (MrCool) would suggest that the "owner" (player 1) and not the player in control of that person's turn (player 2) would get to make the decision of what happens to player 1's commander when being exiled. This is simply not true.

What way did I word it? I literally just quoted the cr. I'll try editing my one line explanation to be more clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Taking control of an opponent and exiling his general
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 5:16 pm 

Joined: 2016-Jan-18 8:44 am
Age: Hatchling
I already house-rule it that if you take someone else's turn, the commander's owner can choose to put the commander back in the command zone any time it would change zones.

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 Post subject: Re: Taking control of an opponent and exiling his general
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 6:48 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Warlord Kentax wrote:
I already house-rule it that if you take someone else's turn, the commander's owner can choose to put the commander back in the command zone any time it would change zones.

Which as a house rule is fine and perfectly allowed, but that's not the rule as written, just as an FYI

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 Post subject: Re: Taking control of an opponent and exiling his general
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 7:39 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I fully support that house rule. :)

I also think I'm of the mindset that I'd support a change to the rules to make it an actual rule.


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