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 Post subject: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 10:54 am 
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Alright, sure I'm going to get flak for asking this but why was Leovold, Emissary of trest banned, sure he was a control commander and oft used for stax, though I don't understand the reasoning. I would also like why in the name of
Richard Garfield, Ph.D. would you unban Protean Hulk? A card that can be easily abused in various archetypes of deck.

Seriously, who even bother suggesting leovold in the first place? considering there are many other cards more worthy of that spot on the banlist.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 11:37 am 

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Leovold was a danger to the format as a whole. Simple as that.


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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 11:53 am 
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Let's put it like this.

I ran Leovold, Emissary of Trest simply as a Sultai commander for tribal Elves--and I took the deck apart, as Leovold was unfun (despite the "Slightly Evil Business Elf" look he was rocking).

On the other hand, when Protean Hulk was unbanned, I dug out my old copy and slotted it into an existing deck (Karador, Ghost Chieftain) without any issues for the deck or my playgroup.


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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 12:06 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
The Professor takes us through the terribleness that can be created by Leovold over here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJtKENfRdn8
I would like to build a fair, reasonable deck with Leo myself, but you have to actively avoid breaking him. timespiral effects are too easyto include. If my local group lets me put it together I will, but Im glad he is banned for the fact that the average Leovold deck is going to create incredibly unfun, undesirable board states.

Protean Hulk on the other hand you have to actively build as broken. It lives in the deck so you have to draw or tutor it, and you must have a combo designed into the deck deliberately. It is being unbanned for the reasons Leo is being banned. If you want to break Hulk you can, but you have to try to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 12:21 pm 
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Competitively, Leovold was 100% the best general in the format, with Meren of Clan Nel Toth being a VERY distant second. He had everything you could possibly want in a general: card advantage, massive efficient hand disruption, the best color combo, can consistently enter T2. I mean, a typical game with him looked something like this:

T1: Land, mana dork
T2: Leovold
T3: Windfall, Dark Deal, Day's Undoing, Timetwister, Teferi's Puzzle Box, Whispering Madness, or Wheel and Deal

This is dumb and stupid and shouldn't be able to be happening on a regular basis. Even outside of highly competitive metas, the above cards and others like them were still played in Leovold decks, a lot. Even without Wheel effects he can still run one of the best possible discard games in the format. This problem is made far worse by the fact that he effectively neuters every single sorcery-speed draw spell in the game. Every single looter effect is now just a discard effect, and Concentrate-type spells do literally nothing.

The ball dropping was not on the RC's part in banning him, but on Wizard's part for printing a so obviously broken piece of shit. There have been some annoying ass commanders printed (Nekusar, Prossh, Azami, Selvala, Skithiryx, Roon, Ghave, Kaalia, Maelstrom Wanderer), but none of them are as consistently and overbearingly powerful as Leovold. Forget Stax, his power as a control commander was beyond stupid. Even more, he absolutely wrecked other control decks, as he prevented them from acquiring the card advantage they need to win. The only decks that really stood a chance against him were fast combo/aggro decks that didn't really rely on card advantage. Seriously, he would probably be even more banworthy than the other four generals who share his place on the banlist.
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As for Hulk, this card has been debated for quite some time. I'm not sure what eventually pushed it over the edge to be unbanned, but it's been for a while one of the relics of the "old" banlist mindset. Simply put, the RC can not and should not try to police combos and other ways that people can "break" the format intentionally. You either have just a couple cards randomly and arbitrarily banned and not actually fixing anything, or you have way too many cards banned and the format is dead because nobody wants to play it anymore. This is the exact same reason why Metalworker, Staff of Domination, Lion's Eye Diamond, and Worldgorger Dragon were all unbanned, and with the unbanning of Hulk Painter's Servant is now the only card on the banlist that doesn't really belong.

That aside, and looking at the specific case for Hulk, there really aren't as many ways to abuse it as it seems. Outside of very intentionally doctoring your deck to abuse it, you really can't do anything too monumentally stupid if your deck isn't running Body Double, Karmic Guide, or Phyrexian Delver alongside it. And outside of literal infinite combos involving it, it really isn't that much worse than Survival of the Fittest or Tooth and Nail in terms of way overpowered creature tutors. We've also dealt with a mini version of it in Woodland Bellower, which hasn't been even remotely controversial. Honestly, most games you see Hulk it'll be getting an Eternal Witness and a Reclamation Sage, or a single six-mana creature. It isn't even remotely a problem unless you're recurring it over and over, and in that case it really isn't that much worse than other superpowers like Prime Speaker Zegana or Avenger of Zendikar or Kokusho, the Evening Star.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 12:47 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Haven't read the OP (RaiRai is on The List(tm)), but judging by the replies the answer(s) to the thread title are:

No one
Because they know what's up.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 1:08 pm 
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On a similar note, I do have a question for any RC member who is willing/able to answer it: what exactly was it that pushed Hulk over the edge and got it to be unbanned. As you know, I've been a strong proponent of it coming off the list pretty much since I started playing, but I can't think of anything recently that's made the arguments in favor of it any more valid or the arguments against it any less...Or is it more of like the banning of Sundering Titan where it was more of "Should have done it a while ago, but better late than never I guess"?

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 1:54 pm 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
On a similar note, I do have a question for any RC member who is willing/able to answer it: what exactly was it that pushed Hulk over the edge and got it to be unbanned. As you know, I've been a strong proponent of it coming off the list pretty much since I started playing, but I can't think of anything recently that's made the arguments in favor of it any more valid or the arguments against it any less...Or is it more of like the banning of Sundering Titan where it was more of "Should have done it a while ago, but better late than never I guess"?

My guess would be the desire to keep the ban list as small as possible pushed it off when leo was added.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 7:54 pm 

Joined: 2016-Oct-24 1:41 am
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I put together a Leovold deck when i pulled one in a conspiracy draft. The first time I played teferi's puzzle box I realised what an un-fun deck it was and took it apart (it helped that the price of levold shot up due to legacy). i've never regretted stopping playing that deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 8:31 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
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Either Calvin or Dez, depending on who you ask.


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Hugely divided by the Hulk un-ban. I think I'm just going to get some popcorn and watch how it falls out as I don't have a burning need to troll my playgroup. It feels a little too easy to abuse, requiring specific answers now rather than general acess to answers in your build. Time will tell.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 9:56 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
what exactly was it that pushed Hulk over the edge and got it to be unbanned.


From my understanding, these things are done by vote. So for years, there could have been people on the RC voting for it to come off the ban list and there could still be people who think it should be banned. All that was needed to change was some people switching their votes.

My guess is that the reason specified in the announcement is probably the accurate reason. They feel that the card is dangerous in decks designed to make it dangerous and there are a ton of cards that are already legal that fit that description and Protean Hulk is no worse than those ones. The fact that it also has a great, possibly game winning combo with a single card in a 100-card singleton deck, Flash, is enough by itself to keep it out.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 11:39 pm 
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Cheethorne has is mostly correct. We do vote, but we weight our votes then total them. The system works because we trust each other to not game the system. PHulk slid over the line. And the announcement is indeed accurate. It might not have all the details, but captures the spirit of it in a reasonably brief fashion, which is what you want out of an announcement.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 6:26 am 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
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An oppressive control commander got banned and a powerful combo card was unbanned. It seems consistent with history.


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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 7:13 am 
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Location: Seattle
zimagic wrote:
Either Calvin or Dez, depending on who you ask.


This was a good post and deserves acknowledgment :lol:

I'm pretty happy with the changes. Leo was obviously very oppressive, and Eggs and Bacon isn't any worse than other two card combos.


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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 7:17 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sheldon wrote:
Cheethorne has is mostly correct. We do vote, but we weight our votes then total them. The system works because we trust each other to not game the system.

Without disclosing who voted for what, can you elaborate on your weighted vote system? How is it weighted? How does it work? Sounds intriguing!

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