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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 7:21 am 
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MatthewB wrote:
An oppressive control commander got banned and a powerful combo card was unbanned. It seems consistent with history.


Leovold is a control commander? lolwut

Pretty sure he's banned for being General No. X that combos off too hard with too many other cards and lacks a proper opportunity cost. Just because a combo isn't "infinite mill" or "infinite LD", or "infinite damage" doesn't make it any less a combo.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 7:30 am 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
MatthewB wrote:
An oppressive control commander got banned and a powerful combo card was unbanned. It seems consistent with history.


Leovold is a control commander? lolwut

Pretty sure he's banned for being General No. X that combos off too hard with too many other cards and lacks a proper opportunity cost. Just because a combo isn't "infinite mill" or "infinite LD", or "infinite damage" doesn't make it any less a combo.

You've got it backwards. He is one hundred percent a control commander. It just so happens that the way he synergizes with other control cards is so oppressively powerful that it resembles combo. Timetwister is a control card. His effect turns Howling Mine into an undercosted Archivist, which is a control card. Preventing your opponents from drawing cards is a "control" ability, as is giving a rattlesnake effect to having people mess with your shit. He really isn't so much a BUG commander as he is a UB commander who gets good mana dorks and artifact/enchantment hate (aside from Sultai Elves).


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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 7:58 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Mr Degradation wrote:
MatthewB wrote:
An oppressive control commander got banned and a powerful combo card was unbanned. It seems consistent with history.


Leovold is a control commander? lolwut

Pretty sure he's banned for being General No. X that combos off too hard with too many other cards and lacks a proper opportunity cost. Just because a combo isn't "infinite mill" or "infinite LD", or "infinite damage" doesn't make it any less a combo.

You've got it backwards. He is one hundred percent a control commander. It just so happens that the way he synergizes with other control cards is so oppressively powerful that it resembles combo. Timetwister is a control card. His effect turns Howling Mine into an undercosted Archivist, which is a control card. Preventing your opponents from drawing cards is a "control" ability, as is giving a rattlesnake effect to having people mess with your shit. He really isn't so much a BUG commander as he is a UB commander who gets good mana dorks and artifact/enchantment hate (aside from Sultai Elves).


Maybe my archetype concepts are outdated, but that really sounds backwards to me- IE, there aren't really "control cards", but control is about how you use certain types of effects. IE, Leovold is a resource denial card, that turns turbo cards into resource denial cards- which outright just stinks of Megrim-style combo.

In a Dromar, The Banisher deck, for example- you may play Wit's End or Identity Crisis as spells that allow you to reposition yourself. But it's ineffective to warp the deck by using an entire series of tutors to find your Wit's End and ramp it out specifically every game- which is exactly what Leovold does at it's core. Leovold doesn't use any cards in the same style that Dromar would utilize Control Magic or Wit's End- the deck just wants to Wit's End every other player at the table as quickly as possible for an immediate and indefinite softlock- which isn't the same thing as a positioning softlock- because one is deck defining, and the other is just a tool that a deck can use to get out of a jam.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 8:04 am 
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I'm with Kong (and nearly everyone else here) - Leovold is a control commander. He literally controls your opponent.

A combo commander is one who with another card or card(s) instantly wins you the game. Kiki-Jiki (Zealous Conscripts) is a combo commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 8:26 am 
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Ok, this has been on my mind since the announcement. I understand the banning of Leovold. He got what he deserved. And I agree with Uktabi, it was Wizards who dropped the ball on printing such an oppressive legendary creature. They need to be careful with the legendary creatures they print now that the format has reached this high level of popularity. Leovold should have never been a legendary creature.

And I also understand unbanning a card to keep the ban list as short as possible. That "the RC votes for cards to come off the ban list" talk is cute and all, but come on, are you saying that, after all these years, banning a card and unbanning Protean Hulk at the same time is just a giant coincidence?

What I don't understand is this...

Unbanning Protean Hulk instead of Painter's Servant? Really?? Is the RC seriously saying that Servant is more dangerous to the format than Hulk???

"Support within the community has been tilting toward Protean Hulk for quite some time." What support? Where are your sources? I'm honestly very curious about the number of people who said this and are not thinking of adding Hulk to their Meren decks or abuse it with the tons of combos that are available on the market...

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 9:38 am 
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I am a single datum point, but I have literally been saying for years and at every serious opportunity that Protean Hulk should come off the list. One Grixmas I happened to get one of the RC as my giftee, and I sent him a Protean Hulk asking him to unban the big lug.

Painter's Servant probably could come off too, I think it's almost in the same category (it's not, really - it does something different that a lot of different cards interact with, not all of them nicely), but there are definitely folks like me out there that have been pushing for Hulk to come of the list for a long long time

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-26 12:43 pm 
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Viperion wrote:
I am a single datum point, but I have literally been saying for years and at every serious opportunity that Protean Hulk should come off the list. One Grixmas I happened to get one of the RC as my giftee, and I sent him a Protean Hulk asking him to unban the big lug.

Painter's Servant probably could come off too, I think it's almost in the same category (it's not, really - it does something different that a lot of different cards interact with, not all of them nicely), but there are definitely folks like me out there that have been pushing for Hulk to come of the list for a long long time

The big reason why I'd consider Servant much less problematic than Hulk is because Hulk at least can be somewhat accidentally broken. Playing a bunch of reanimator spells in a deck with Hulk by itself can be enough to make it annoying as fuck, even if it isn't broken. It's not unlike Primeval Titan in that way, except nowhere near as bad.

Servant on the other hand... there's like 3 cards in the whole game that both interact badly with it AND have any purpose in being in an EDH deck that isn't specifically designed to abuse it. There's like Ugin, Wash Out, Iona, and Teysa, Orzhov Scion. That's pretty much it. All of the other common offenders with Servant (Deathgrip, Grindstone, Anarchy) are just plain bad without it, and most are pretty obviously antisocial anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-27 12:28 am 
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To my understanding, the reasoning here is that there are not only more hoses for Hulk combo, but those hate cards overflow into limiting Hulk Value. Hulk combos tend to involve playing atleast 3, usually 4 or 5 colors- so there is an opportunity cost associated with trying to actually combo out Hulk, and the hate printed in the last several years has reached a point to where Teneb, the Harvester also only gets limited EV out of Hulks.

Servant on the otherhand doesn't have a color identity or necessarily require using any specific color identity, so it's most likely to just find it's way as a tertiary combo piece inside of decks like Breya which are already loaded to the brim with combo potential. That isn't necessarily a great argument for keeping it banned, but I consider it acceptable with the context of how slowly the banlist tends to change for EDH.

Still trying to figure out how unbanning hulk is "dropping the ball" though. We live in a world with Containment Priest and friends. If anything, Hulk will just remind of us of why the altars are stupid and closer to being banworthy than anything they enable.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-27 2:25 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Servant on the other hand... there's like 3 cards in the whole game that both interact badly with it AND have any purpose in being in an EDH deck that isn't specifically designed to abuse it.

I think the main problem with Painter's Servant, and I'm no longer sure whether it should remain banned or not, but the problem is that no one will include it into their deck unless they plan to take advantage of the colour setting ability. And people looking for such an ability are far more likely to be looking to take advantage of it in a way that is bad / not fun for all other players then they are to do things like play a card that says "target creature gets +1/+1 for every red permanent you control" or something like that. Such effects are few and far between and there simply is probably not enough of them to justify including Painter's Servant as a random card in your deck unless that inclusion is going to have a lot of impact.

By comparison, Protean Hulk, can easily be put into any green card as a way of just having a value creature at the top of your curve that just gets you some creatures when it dies, helping you to recover from a board clear or targeted removal.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-27 3:44 am 

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Any card that turns Hibernation into a half price, instant speed Upheaval is probably too dangerous* for this format.

* - 'too dangerous', not 'too good'

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-27 1:24 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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I'm just glad I never bothered to build Leo. I was really looking forward to playing some odd-ball cards to take advantage of the single draw opponents get- Prosperity and the like.

But he was to expensive for me to bother with.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-27 5:32 pm 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
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tarnar wrote:
Any card that turns Hibernation into a half price, instant speed Upheaval is probably too dangerous* for this format.

* - 'too dangerous', not 'too good'

You mean like how Mycosynth Lattice does literally the exact same thing with Rebuild :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-27 6:56 pm 
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MrCool wrote:
tarnar wrote:
Any card that turns Hibernation into a half price, instant speed Upheaval is probably too dangerous* for this format.

* - 'too dangerous', not 'too good'

You mean like how Mycosynth Lattice does literally the exact same thing with Rebuild :roll:

Not to mention that yesterday I witnessed a game lockdown with one player controlling Enchanted Evening and another controlling Opalescence.

Besides, what is more likely to be played in Commander, Hibernation or Rebuild? I've even seen Hurkyl's Recall played one or two times (and Vandalblast is pretty much everywhere), but never seen Hibernation. If anything, I would ban Mycosynth Lattice first and Painter's Servant second. It's just ridiculous at this point to argue that Servant deserves to be on the ban list. But by the look of things, I guess I'll have to wait for Wizards to print another unfun/overpowered/Griselbrand card into the format to see it come off.

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Last edited by Maluko on 2017-Apr-28 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-28 2:22 am 

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Mycosynth Lattice would have been banned years ago at 2 CMC.

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 Post subject: Re: Who dropped the ball? and Why? [Banlist update Discussion]
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-28 4:33 am 
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tarnar wrote:
Mycosynth Lattice would have been banned years ago at 2 CMC.


Likely quite true.

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