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 Post subject: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 4:39 pm 
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So, apparently there are folks who see Felidar Sovereign as a problem. Why?

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 7:07 pm 
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It's as much of a problem as Test of Endurance is. Which is to say, it's not. I've seen it hit tables a few times and I've never seen it win a game.

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 7:50 pm 

Joined: 2016-Oct-24 1:41 am
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Viperion wrote:
It's as much of a problem as Test of Endurance is. Which is to say, it's not. I've seen it hit tables a few times and I've never seen it win a game.


I agree, I play a Karlov deck and run one - It's a handy blocker or way to gain me life but I can only remember actually winning one game with it's ability


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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-25 9:56 pm 
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I had a pillowfort monowhite deck which ran it. I was always really surprised when i won with it. It's most dangerous/annoying with chord of calling or any way to flash it in at the end of your opponents turn. Other than that, it's a creature so there are plenty of ways with dealing with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-27 12:10 am 
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It's a fine wincon. It has a huge window of disruptability, and serves one of many alternative wincons for a general like Treva, The Renewer, or Trostani, Selesnya's Voice. Honestly, it's good for the game because it allows a decks without a great deal of reach to get there against other Stax-like stuff.

I think many players are just afraid of any variation of the Coalition Victory-like effect. But if Approach of the Second Sun is any proof, they aren't going away.

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-01 1:07 pm 
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It's sort of house-banned at our tables. Some people used to play it, but felt bad afterwards.

While my concern with it is minimal, it's just not a game anyone in my group wants to play; no one is especially interested in sitting behind a pillow fort and then winning the game when they draw Test or Sovereign. We're a little bit more interactive, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-02 4:45 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
We don't have any kind of ban on it. When it was more often played we were packing more instant speed spot removal. As it fell out of favor we started to play less.

Its a cheese win in some cases. Thats the big issue. When you lack an immediate answer to lose to something like that hurts your feelings.

Its not a real issue beyond that.

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-02 9:00 am 
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It just feels bad because the intent of the card is clearly to reward you for gaining a bunch of life, while in EDH is perfectly possible to win by doing practically nothing other then playing the card.

In a casual environment, a player could ramp into it turn 4 or 5 before anyone has swung at anybody, then win because no one has removal for it.

Test of Endurance at least requires some minimal amount of effort to win with.

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-02 2:40 pm 
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sir squab wrote:
It just feels bad because the intent of the card is clearly to reward you for gaining a bunch of life, while in EDH is perfectly possible to win by doing practically nothing other then playing the card.

In a casual environment, a player could ramp into it turn 4 or 5 before anyone has swung at anybody, then win because no one has removal for it.

Test of Endurance at least requires some minimal amount of effort to win with.

This.

I haven't seen a win-cat in a while. I used to run it in Brion Stoutarm, but I got bored with it and took it out, although I did have one game where I dropped it and my last opponent used Living Death to try and get rid of it... so I threw it at him in response. In hindsight, a pretty obvious play, but satisfying nonetheless.

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-02 3:40 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
sir squab wrote:
It just feels bad because the intent of the card is clearly to reward you for gaining a bunch of life, while in EDH is perfectly possible to win by doing practically nothing other then playing the card.

In a casual environment, a player could ramp into it turn 4 or 5 before anyone has swung at anybody, then win because no one has removal for it.

If it's winning at *exactly* 40 life because no one is swinging, then it's easy to self regulate in a group. You pop someone for 1 before you sac that Sakura Tribe Elder. With the low chances of having it on turn 5 and not taking one single hit/fetching, i don't see any problem with it. On the other hand, if i were playing in an environment where people really elected to play actual 0 interaction by turn 5, then i'd have no problem cutting it out of my deck either.


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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-03 12:56 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
if i were playing in an environment where people really elected to play actual 0 interaction by turn 5, then i'd have no problem cutting it out of my deck either.

I dunno .. I mean, I totally get where you're coming from ... but I could see myself using that to prod others into changing up their playstyle a little. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-03 9:17 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
sir squab wrote:
It just feels bad because the intent of the card is clearly to reward you for gaining a bunch of life, while in EDH is perfectly possible to win by doing practically nothing other then playing the card.

In a casual environment, a player could ramp into it turn 4 or 5 before anyone has swung at anybody, then win because no one has removal for it.

If it's winning at *exactly* 40 life because no one is swinging, then it's easy to self regulate in a group. You pop someone for 1 before you sac that Sakura Tribe Elder. With the low chances of having it on turn 5 and not taking one single hit/fetching, i don't see any problem with it. On the other hand, if i were playing in an environment where people really elected to play actual 0 interaction by turn 5, then i'd have no problem cutting it out of my deck either.


You're missing my point. I'm not trying to argue that Felidar Sovereign is problematic; I'm simply trying to explain WHY some players think it's problematic. Whether or not Felidar Sovereign actually IS a problematic card is another topic altogether.

For the record, I do not think Felidar Sovereign is actually a problematic card at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-03 11:20 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
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sir squab wrote:
For the record, I do not think Felidar Sovereign is actually a problematic card at all.

I agree, although I think "annoying" might be a better word to describe what you were talking about above - Felidar is like Iona, but less severe. It's not dominating / ruining the format at large. It also isn't especially fun, and has a somewhat unfortunate interaction with the format rules (in this case, being on-line from the word "go").

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-09 5:51 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
I've never really been a fan of any card in this format that just says "you win the game". This is EDH, it's supposed to be the home of epic plays, and casting a card and winning the game because the card tells you to, its pretty meh. I mean I can extend that logic to things like craterhoof, insurrection or X spells that hit everyone for instant death, they just dont feel particularly epic when it equates to "if board state equals X, win game". I feel like you should have to work harder for it than that.

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We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Felidar Sovereign: Analyze it.
AgePosted: 2017-May-09 6:11 am 
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Joined: 2015-Mar-18 12:55 pm
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Wolfsbane706 wrote:
As someone who runs a lifegain deck, I'd like to point out that starting with 40 life and keeping that 40 life are two very different things. Also, none of the life total wincons have built in protection, so it's not like they're hard ro get rid of.

My argument in favor of Felidar Sovereign.

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Sheldon wrote:
The cards didn't just warp the way the games were played, they warped how I was conceiving and perceiving the format. That's the sign of a problem.

Carthain wrote:
The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.


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