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 Post subject: How do the Act of Exiling, and the Command Zone work?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-28 4:07 pm 

Joined: 2017-Apr-26 3:08 pm
Age: Hatchling
Ok so an interesting interaction between Godsend and the Command Zone has brought me to question how I thought exiling and the command zone worked, so I looked up the full rules of exiling, but the same doesn't seem to exist for the command zone, so I'd like someone to help me clarify not just how this interaction works, but also why.

As it stands my understanding is that if I attack with a creature equipped with Godsend and my opponent blocks with their Commander I may choose to use Godsend's ability to exile their commander, but they may move their commander to the command zone as if their commander card had a trigger ability that essentially reads: "Whenever this card would be put into any zone from the battlefield, its owner may move it to the command zone instead."

If that's how it works, then Godsend couldn't prevent the commander from being cast from the command zone because:

Quote:
701.10a To exile an object, move it to the exile zone from wherever it is. See rule 406, “Exile.”


and

Quote:
406.2. To exile an object is to put it into the exile zone from whatever zone it’s currently in. An exiled card is a card that’s been put into the exile zone.


Thus it was never actually exiled because the Commander card never hit the Exile zone. If it wasn't exiled, it wouldn't gain the property "was exiled by 'Godsend A'

HOWEVER, This Thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18576, has given me pause to all of this because according to it, Oblivion Ring, Fiend Hunter, and other cards that exile a card may put that card back into play from the command zone. But those cards also rely on the commander having gained the property of "was exiled by: CARD," and having completed the exile.

Now if I've read that thread properly, they do this either because the Commander format (effectively) changes the text of those cards to say "if the target is a commander, put it into the command zone instead," and "if the target card was a commander, put them back into play from the command zone instead," or because of something in rule 603.6

Quote:
603.6. Trigger events that involve objects changing zones are called “zone-change triggers.” Many abilities with zone-change triggers attempt to do something to that object after it changes zones. During resolution, these abilities look for the object in the zone that it moved to. If the object is unable to be found in the zone it went to, the part of the ability attempting to do something to the object will fail to do anything. The ability could be unable to find the object because the object never entered the specified zone, because it left the zone before the ability resolved, or because it is in a zone that is hidden from a player, such as a library or an opponent’s hand. (This rule applies even if the object leaves the zone and returns again before the ability resolves.) The most common zone-change triggers are enters-the-battlefield triggers and leaves-the-battlefield triggers.


Now if its the former, then where is the ruling posted for this, so that I can reference it easily, and if its the later, what part of that exactly is the offending piece? 603.6 seems to merely say that "some stuff looks where the card went, some other stuff looks in a specific location, if its a thing that looks in a location, if the thing isn't there the effect fails".

If O-Ring and similar effects look in a specific location and the commander is not there it should fail. If O-Ring checks where a card is currently, it still has to check (in theory) for the card having the property "was exiled by 'O-ring A'", and should still fail.

If O-Ring and similar effects work in that situation, then wouldn't Godsend as well? And if not, why not. I'm just confused, and I really hope that someone can explain the way that exile and the command zone work because the arguments made in that thread just don't make sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: How do the Act of Exiling, and the Command Zone work?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-28 8:21 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Noxiousice wrote:
Thus it was never actually exiled because the Commander card never hit the Exile zone. If it wasn't exiled, it wouldn't gain the property "was exiled by 'Godsend A'

There is no "property" like that. There's only cards in the exile zone that were put there via the ability on Godsend. You can think of it as having that property if you like, but if you want to get into the "how do these rules work & interact" then it's best to know exactly how this stuff works :)

Noxiousice wrote:
HOWEVER, This Thread: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18576, has given me pause to all of this because according to it, Oblivion Ring, Fiend Hunter, and other cards that exile a card may put that card back into play from the command zone. But those cards also rely on the commander having gained the property of "was exiled by: CARD," and having completed the exile.

That is actually incorrect. For cards like Banisher Priest or Cast Out - that is how those cards work.

For O-Ring & Fiend Hunter: These cards specifically look for "the exiled card" which means (as per your rules quote of 406.2) a card that is is in the exile zone.

So if you put your commander into the command zone when it is exiled with O-ring .. .then there is no "exiled card" for the o-ring to return to play. However, with Banisher Priest - it just says to exile the card until Banisher Priest leaves play. Because it never looks for "the exiled card" then it can return the commander to play even if it was moved to the command zone. But, there's still more to this: Because each card becomes a new "object" when it moves zones, Banisher Priest will only return a commander that it tried to exile, but was moved to the command zone instead ONLY IF that commander hasn't left the command zone since Banisher Priest tried to exile it.

So, it seems you misread that thread. Hope this helps. :)


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 Post subject: Re: How do the Act of Exiling, and the Command Zone work?
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-28 9:40 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Basically, if you want to know if such an effect only looks in the exile zone, look at the oracle text to see if any part of the effect references the "exiled card" or "cards exiled with X". Godsend does this, therefore it doesn't look in the command zone. The same goes for Oblivion Ring, Fiend Hunter, Parallax Wave, and Spell Queller among others.

BTW, I would like to repeat my request which I made when I started the thread mentioned by the OP. A clarification of this rules interaction on the Details section of the relevant rule on the main site page would be valuable. Such a clarification would not break precedence since there are already similar clarifications on that page such as the one about "dies" triggers and the one about commanders abiding by the legend rule (which has its own rule number even though it is only a redundant clarification).

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 Post subject: Re: How do the Act of Exiling, and the Command Zone work?
AgePosted: 2017-May-01 4:07 am 

Joined: 2017-Apr-26 3:08 pm
Age: Hatchling
Carthain wrote:
So, it seems you misread that thread. Hope this helps. :)


Absolutely. This actually makes sense. I thought that it was saying that O-ring worked, so I was confused because I couldn't see a reading of the rules that allowed that. I do see a reading of say Grasp Of Fate that allows it, (which after rereading seems to be what the thread is actually about). I also don't really see needing a sticky or FAQ about this either, but I suppose that's biased by my initial thought of how the rules worked.

Thanks a ton.


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 Post subject: Re: How do the Act of Exiling, and the Command Zone work?
AgePosted: 2017-May-01 7:54 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Right now the rules page looks roughly like so:

Quote:
If a Commander would be put into a library, hand, graveyard or exile from anywhere, its owner may choose to move it to the command zone instead.
This is a replacement effect. It applies last and may apply multiple times to an event.
The creature never goes to the original destination zone and will not trigger abilities that trigger based on going there (e.g. "dies" triggers).



I don't think it's a bad idea to add another 'reminder' line. We already have a friendly reminder about replacement effects and triggers, even though that's not Commander-specific at all.

Maybe:

"Effects that track the creature between public zones can still find it, provided they do not name a specific zone"

The best example I have is

(e.g. Astral Slide's delayed trigger can find the Commander in the Command Zone, but Oblivion Ring's leaves-the-battlefield trigger cannot)

But then the example is WAY longer than the actual reminder hint :P

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