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 Post subject: Kozilek and Nim Deathmantle
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-28 12:26 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
Question came up during a game.

Player has Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, some creatures including Crypt Ghast, and Nim Deathmantle

Another player cast a wrath. Can the Koz Player use Nim Deathmantle's ability to bring back Crypt Ghast before Kozilek shuffles everything into his library?

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Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek and Nim Deathmantle
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-28 12:59 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Seems like it. You own/control both the Kozi and the Deathmantle, both trigger at the same time, so you should be able to stack the triggers so the Mantle Resolves First.

And just to be technical- the mantle would trigger for each creature (so Kozi, the Ghast, and anything else), so you should be able to pay 4 multiple times. The last one would end up with the mantle equipped

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek and Nim Deathmantle
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-28 8:23 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I agree with everything niheloim said.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek and Nim Deathmantle
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-29 11:56 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
So here's the problem. You technically can't trigger the deathmantle until the wrath resolves. Once the wrath resolves all the creatures go to the graveyard. Is Kozilek's shuffle effect a trigger that goes on the stack that can be responded to or is it a state based effect?

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Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek and Nim Deathmantle
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-29 12:37 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
The shuffle effect is a trigger. Which is why you can shallow grave/goryo's vengeance Emrakul. TinFins 4ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek and Nim Deathmantle
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-29 2:25 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
scatteredsun wrote:
So here's the problem. You technically can't trigger the deathmantle until the wrath resolves. Once the wrath resolves all the creatures go to the graveyard. Is Kozilek's shuffle effect a trigger that goes on the stack that can be responded to or is it a state based effect?

This is Kozilek's Oracle/Gatherer text:

"When Kozilek is put into a graveyard from anywhere, its owner shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library."

The use of the word "when" indicates this is a triggered ability. It will trigger due to the wrath effect, but the ability won't be put on the stack until after the wrath effect resolves and state-based actions are checked and cleared. This will be the same time the Deathmantle's triggered ability needs to be put onto the stack.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek and Nim Deathmantle
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-29 2:51 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I have lost to making my opponent discard an Emrakul on turn 4 because they had Makeshift Mannequin.

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 Post subject: Re: Kozilek and Nim Deathmantle
AgePosted: 2017-Apr-30 1:38 am 
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Joined: 2012-Jan-06 10:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Seattle
So there's a moment when you could bring Koz or Ulamog back from the graveyard. Neat. Thanks all.

_________________
Glissa, the Traitor -> Voltron
Mayael the Anima -> Flopping Fatties
Phenax, God of Deception -> Grave Rats
Starke of Rath -> Wrath of Starke: MRC

Proving Grounds: Drawmia-maro, Titania When Lands Attack, Tromokratis Read it Again, Kaalia's Klerics, Hordes of Tribes.


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