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MTG Commander/Elder Dragon Highlander • View topic - Banlist Discussion Stuff

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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-05 11:16 pm 
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So I've pretty much always disagreed with the RC on just about everything they've done, I find their method of managing the format to be downright negligent and ignorant of the actual issues an "optimized casual" AKA still non-competitive setting has when they do utterly insane things like unban mother humping god damn protean hulk.

That being said, based on their 1v1 ban list, wotc can please stay the hell away from paper EDH, because I'd rather have a the ban list curated by people who do nothing but take cards off of it, than a group of people who clearly have no friggin clue what they're doing and ban cards like humility, which basically no one cares about, and ban some broken cards but leave most of the really good ones still available for abuse.

Yeah, I never want to see WotC in control of paper EDH if this is any indication of how they'd handle it.


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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-06 1:25 am 
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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-06 2:05 am 
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I'm curious as to how we've been negligent. And feel free to enlighten us of the "actual issues" you mention.

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"Leave the gun. Take the cannolis."


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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-06 4:02 am 
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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-06 6:21 am 
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Actually, Gath, the bannings are performed after furious debate among the Rules Commitee. While Sheldon is one of the architects, he's more or less the voice of the group towards the public, but it isn't his format to balance by his lonesome.

Extra Turns- This can't be fixed by bannings- It's up to each playgroup to moderate excessive turns in their own way. That said, many decks that I've played actually finish the game on the first extra turn- which makes the whole thing kindof moot. We all know that extra turns exist, we all know that they potentially break the game, we all built our decks to fight them, we all have discussions with our playgroups about where "the line" is, and when it is crossed.

Deadeye- Has been in the community's crosshairs since it was printed. Quite possibly the reason that and were designed. It's a known quantity, and is often attacked and teched out by playgroups. The fear of it over-centralizing the game is valid, but so far, there's just enough tech to keep it relatively speaking in line for a 6 drop recursion engine starter that strains it's owner's mana.

Kiki- Similar to Navigator, recursion is something that R, W, and U get to do very well. It goes infinite, and the number of tech cards to hate it out are expansive. Kiki has become a non-issue.

Big Mike- This feels like more of an extension of the Hulk debate. Mike + Triskellion is a known quantity, but having tried- Recurring Mike is hard in a salted playgroup, comboing with Mike is even harder, because he gives anything that he would combo off with +1/+1 requiring a third card that is a functional sac outlet. If that outlet requires mana, Mike combos become fireballs (which are very acceptable in EDH), if it's free- it can go infinite, but the windows for disruption are huge. Powerful cards simply exist in EDH, and after you get blown out by them, they tend to be on your radar- banning is only sensible when "tech better" doesn't work- and Mike (like Kiki) really doesn't come even close to that edge.

Hulk- Sheldon recognized in the latest Commanderin' podcast that this was a gamble, but honestly- I've had a hard time justifying Hulk in many lists- because the power level of 6 drops is waaaay different than it was in 2009.

To be honest, most of what has been described here, largely got phased out through the change in design philosophy that falls under the umbrella term "Titan Magic". Pure combo strategies have been phased out enough to really dominate EDH like they once did, because there's now a saturation of absolute powerhouse 5-7 mana creatures that make stalling or over-tutoring for combos weaker than it once was- 2 of them ( and ) are even banned, because their raw utility and the ease of recurring them makes them scale in ways that the format cannot withstand without centralizing around them- and simply put, none of the cards listed even remotely stack in my experience to recurring Sylvan Primordials for value. Hulk and Big Mike are tragically slow by comparison to most of the Titan-cycles, Kiki-combos tend to get hosed out by variants. effects, token hate, proactive removal strategies ( and friends) etc., and Deadeye really needs to see an untap step before it's mana intensiveness keeps allows it to go off in excessive ways. Extra turns are a known quantity that the banlist cannot handle reasonably- so they have to be teched out or handled politically (copy it, counter it, target the player in subsequent games, refuse to play with the player.)

EDH is currently only really suffering from a few pain Voltron and super-tutor dense decks or hot cheese like - but even then, the format has to be managed at the player level through the social contract.


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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-06 7:46 am 
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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 4:40 am 

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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 10:52 am 
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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 12:50 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 1:20 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 1:51 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: American 1v1 rules change
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 2:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 2:38 pm 

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-07 3:04 pm 

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Ok - I run in an area with a fair amount of disposable income. The areas where high school kids are running with 2-3k$ decks. Half of what you mentioned is annoying but usually stopped on the spot or taken out before a single turn of the table. I've seen Mike/Ike type combos work once. I never got Kiki-Zeal to work when I was running it in a mono-red deck. Iona/Vorn? The table groans and then someone deals with it. Iona is broken against mono colored decks - I will agree to that. My viewpoint on broken? Kozeliek as commander. Turn 3 protected by boots swing with annihilator 4.

You've touched on common netdeck combo/broken cards that can kill unprepared tables. It sounds like your playgroup is running low on answers or just doesn't have a dedicated I answer everything type personality. One of my friends recommends at least 10 targeted removal and multiple mass removal with ways to bring them back - for every deck.

How does my playgroup handle stupidity? With more stupidity of course. Example: Use Chancellor of the Spires on a clone type spell - generate 1 million 7/7 flyers for fun. Player 2 makes 1.5 million copies. Player 3 says ewww. Clone legion. Player 4 says - this is freaking stupid. I'm going to make 100 million copies. They proceeded to kill me for my efforts.

I feel like it's late and I'm only semi making sense so I'll close with a question. Ban all of the problem cards you mentioned. Where does it end? Do we ban E. Witness cause it's cheap recursion that can be reused multiple times? Let's ban dual lands because they are instant 2 color lands with no drawback. I've found that one group's cancer overpowered deck is weak according to different playgroup. (was told a turn 3 mana reflection was cancer) Given the wide range of playgroups and card bases - where does the banlist end?


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-08 3:54 am 
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