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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-14 9:58 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Aniodia wrote:
... No point in having a removal spell if it's a Disenchant, y'know?

Sorry to make what might be an obvious point, but this seems to be something that "I hate combo" people oft miss.

Disenchant stops a lot of combos. The best sac outlets are artifacts so unless it's literally mike/trike then there is probably an artifact involved in the loop.

It is not that hard to beat a deck using reasonable 3 card combos if you know what to look for. If I am winning with one of my karmic guide/reveillark loops then I have had to carefully craft a boardstate where my opponents are unlikely to be able to interact because I have encouraged them to tap out, or baited their removal the previous turn. People should not leave my ashnod's altar in play for 2-3 turn cycles, but they do.

Anti-combo people focus on the game ending turn, where the combo player dropped two cards and won the game, but they rarely think about the rest of the game and the build up to that point. There are always signs and if you are ignoring them you will keep losing to combos.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-15 3:59 pm 

Joined: 2008-Apr-15 11:51 am
Age: Wyvern
specter404 wrote:
Aniodia wrote:
... No point in having a removal spell if it's a Disenchant, y'know?

Sorry to make what might be an obvious point, but this seems to be something that "I hate combo" people oft miss.

Disenchant stops a lot of combos. The best sac outlets are artifacts so unless it's literally mike/trike then there is probably an artifact involved in the loop.

It is not that hard to beat a deck using reasonable 3 card combos if you know what to look for. If I am winning with one of my karmic guide/reveillark loops then I have had to carefully craft a boardstate where my opponents are unlikely to be able to interact because I have encouraged them to tap out, or baited their removal the previous turn. People should not leave my ashnod's altar in play for 2-3 turn cycles, but they do.

Anti-combo people focus on the game ending turn, where the combo player dropped two cards and won the game, but they rarely think about the rest of the game and the build up to that point. There are always signs and if you are ignoring them you will keep losing to combos.

I'm not sure how you got "Disenchant is good" from my whole point being "you need to have the correct removal for the situation." Also, in your haste to masturbate over Disenchant, you completely ignore any creature-based sac outlets, such as the fairly ubiquitous 1-drop Viscera Seer (conveniently in the same color as the Mikaeus in question), let alone any others.

In any case, again my whole point was how likely it was for someone to have the proper removal spell when Johnny Combo blew his nut. While someone having applicable removal isn't uncommon, there are definitely games where no one has an answer. For as much as perverts* want to claim otherwise, those games will happen more often than people think they do.

It is those 1 in 10-ish games (if the assumptions made in my previous post are correct for your playgroup) that tend to be remembered, moreso if JC nutted before the game really got started. Case in point, over on the SomethingAwful EDH thread, a player lost to T1 Viscera Seer, T2 Entomb Hulk -> Reanimate. While yes, this is a little Magical Christmas Land-y, I don't particularly see it as too much of an outlier. GB(x) is a very powerful combo, and Hulk just takes advantage of being cheaper than Tooth and Nail as well as the multitude of value guys you'd already be running regardless.

Not only that, but not everyone plays hyper-competitive decks every time they play. Running into a combo deck with something less than stellar just leads to shitty games, and it shouldn't have to be on a playgroup to police that one dick who only wants to run combo decks "because the RC doesn't say I can't".

*I say pervert here, because what rational person would willingly go out and masturbate in public, especially at a local gaming store?


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-15 4:51 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Aniodia wrote:
and it shouldn't have to be on a playgroup to police that one dick who only wants to run combo decks "because the RC doesn't say I can't".


Why should it not?

How big do you want the banned list to be? You cannot possibly ban all combos from the game without significant collateral damage. Everything that taps for more than one mana? Banned. Everything that untaps something? Banned. Everything that allows sacrifice? Banned. How many thousands of cards did we just grow the banned list? We're not done yet...

Ok now he just tutors out Craterhoof every game... So much better than combo, right?

What you can do is talk to that "one dick".

What you can do is learn from your losses and play smarter.

What you can do is metagame to very easily beat combo.

Punish the guy for going the combo route and he'll stop a lot faster than if the RC bans the flavor of the month combo.

Do not put the onus on the RC because you don't want to deal with one player.


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 1:37 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Really enjoyed this read by Sheldon:
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/35110_The-Dangers-Of-A-Bigger-Ban-List.html

Illustrates nicely the difference in stances between the current philosophy and actively holding players hands and removing the responsability of making a choice when building in the format.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 8:45 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
:lol: :lol: :lol: Pull your head out of your ass. Combo players are one of the three main psychographics of the game. Are you seriously suggesting that near 1/3 of the players of the game have no right to play in the way that they find fun? Sure, easy combos where you just play a card and win are cancerous, but you can't honestly tell me that a well-built Rube Goldberg machine isn't a thing of beauty just because you're too self-absorbed not to plan on disrupting your opponents.


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 9:02 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
majikal wrote:
:lol: :lol: :lol: Pull your head out of your ass. Combo players are one of the three main psychographics of the game. Are you seriously suggesting that near 1/3 of the players of the game have no right to play in the way that they find fun? Sure, easy combos where you just play a card and win are cancerous, but you can't honestly tell me that a well-built Rube Goldberg machine isn't a thing of beauty just because you're too self-absorbed not to plan on disrupting your opponents.


I don't think anyone was referring to that type of combo, 2 card combos being as ubiquitous as they are in edh.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 10:12 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Aniodia wrote:
Not only that, but not everyone plays hyper-competitive decks every time they play. Running into a combo deck with something less than stellar just leads to shitty games, and it shouldn't have to be on a playgroup to police that one dick who only wants to run combo decks "because the RC doesn't say I can't".


Your argument is self defeating. Not everyone that plays combo is playing it in a hyper competitive deck. If your view of combo is contained solely to the tuned lists designed to go off as fast as possible then you are going to have a negative view of it from a less competitive position.

The combo decks that exist in my meta, both the ones I play and play against, are build to craft a board state, dissuade attacks, control the pace of the game and set up a win. They dont win on turn 4 before people get a chance to set up and play the game, they win on turn 12 when everyone is becoming exhausted of resources after several turns of set up and planning.

Like any other archetype there is a scale, and it is unfair to judge combo players based on T4 competitive decks as it is to judge tribal decks based on elfball. It is especially unfair to call all combo players perverts and wankers because some of them take it to the extreme.

Gath Immortal wrote:
I don't think anyone was referring to that type of combo, 2 card combos being as ubiquitous as they are in edh.

Maybe Im just very fortunate, but I dont see two card combo much at all. 3+ cards I do, and one card genesis wave or enter the infinite type combo on MTGO, but I haven't seen someone win with a mike/trike loop in ages. I cant even think of that many 2 card combos.

Anodia specifically referenced Johnny Combo Player, which is an archetype described as enjoying the sense of clever achievement from designing carefully crafted innovative deck. Johhnies want to win with style. Two card combo isn't johnny, it's Spike, and that is my objection to this line of argument. Saying all combo players are wankers is unfair. Banning black mike wont stop spikes being spikes, they just move on to something else, it will take a cool powerful creature out of a lot of synergistic decks though.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 11:29 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Banning black mike wont stop spikes being spikes, they just move on to something else, it will take a cool powerful creature out of a lot of synergistic decks though.

Even more importantly, most REAL spikes aren't even running black mike in the first place. Real spikes run Hermit Druid or Doomsday or other far scarier crap.


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 1:48 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Aniodia wrote:
Johnny Combo blew his nut

For as much as perverts* want to claim otherwise

moreso if JC nutted

*I say pervert here, because what rational person would willingly go out and masturbate in public, especially at a local gaming store?

Is... Is this what people are referring to when they call someone an edgelord?

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Banning black mike wont stop spikes being spikes, they just move on to something else, it will take a cool powerful creature out of a lot of synergistic decks though.

Even more importantly, most REAL spikes aren't even running black mike in the first place. Real spikes run Hermit Druid or Doomsday or other far scarier crap.

This is pretty big. I don't know if you even meant it this deep, but this is also an example of why we can't ban everything.

Mikaeus can be absolutely busted when played against groups of people who favor very little removal and pack more cards that do their own thing, or people who don't play gy-interaction on the grounds they shouldn't have to in casual games. Now, i can understand folks who think playing less removal is okay if no one is playing busted shit so everyone can focus on advancing their board and cruising their armies against each other the old fashioned way. But the reality is that, yes, Mikaeus is quite low on the list of the "best" or "fastest" combos. He's a combo of two creatures, that uses the graveyard, and activated abilities, that must target players. There are so many ways to interact with this, and many of them are reasonable cards on their own entirely separate from their "anti-mikaeus" applications.

People who want Mikaeus banned are, i really believe, *mostly* people who would still be complaining if they came to the format *after* Miakeus and other combo cards were already banned.

Fwiw, this is someone who kills pods with Mikaeus virtually every week AND has Hermit Druid built and piloted to victory.


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-16 1:57 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Sovarius wrote:
Aniodia wrote:
Johnny Combo blew his nut

For as much as perverts* want to claim otherwise

moreso if JC nutted

*I say pervert here, because what rational person would willingly go out and masturbate in public, especially at a local gaming store?

Is... Is this what people are referring to when they call someone an edgelord?
am I not the only one turned off by the crassness? good to see.

Quote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Banning black mike wont stop spikes being spikes, they just move on to something else, it will take a cool powerful creature out of a lot of synergistic decks though.

Even more importantly, most REAL spikes aren't even running black mike in the first place. Real spikes run Hermit Druid or Doomsday or other far scarier crap.

This is pretty big. I don't know if you even meant it this deep, but this is also an example of why we can't ban everything.

Mikaeus can be absolutely busted when played against groups of people who favor very little removal and pack more cards that do their own thing, or people who don't play gy-interaction on the grounds they shouldn't have to in casual games. Now, i can understand folks who think playing less removal is okay if no one is playing busted shit so everyone can focus on advancing their board and cruising their armies against each other the old fashioned way. But the reality is that, yes, Mikaeus is quite low on the list of the "best" or "fastest" combos. He's a combo of two creatures, that uses the graveyard, and activated abilities, that must target players. There are so many ways to interact with this, and many of them are reasonable cards on their own entirely separate from their "anti-mikaeus" applications.

People who want Mikaeus banned are, i really believe, *mostly* people who would still be complaining if they came to the format *after* Miakeus and other combo cards were already banned.

Fwiw, this is someone who kills pods with Mikaeus virtually every week AND has Hermit Druid built and piloted to victory.

Yup. agreed.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 12:47 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-24 10:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Tampa, FL, USA
Let's please keep the language and imagery reasonable and avoid personal attacks.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Discussion Stuff
AgePosted: 2017-May-17 1:08 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
Aniodia wrote:
Johnny Combo blew his nut

For as much as perverts* want to claim otherwise

moreso if JC nutted

*I say pervert here, because what rational person would willingly go out and masturbate in public, especially at a local gaming store?

Is... Is this what people are referring to when they call someone an edgelord?
am I not the only one turned off by the crassness? good to see.

Oh no ... not the only one.


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