Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Jul-20 11:46 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-09 1:16 pm 

Joined: 2017-May-09 1:04 pm
Age: Wyvern
Quote:
903.3. Each deck has a legendary creature card designated as its commander. This designation is not a characteristic of the object represented by the card; rather, it is an attribute of the card itself. The card retains this designation even when it changes zones


Quote:
903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owner’s hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.


I am having a hard time coming around to the fact that if 903.3 and 903.9 are both true, why your commander moving from a face down zone to another face down zone does not prompt a replacement option.

How can your commander, which retains its commander attribute while in all zones, move zones and you not be able to replace the move? For example, if my commander is put into my library and I don't replace the movement with the command zone, and then later it is exiled face down.

The card is supposed to still have its commander attribute right? It keeps it in all zones. How can it keep it's attribute as your commander and move from one zone to another and not prompt 903.9's replacement effect?

I've spoke with some judges, who have told me it's because of hidden and/or unknown information. I see their point, but why does 903.3 specify it retains its "commanderness" in all zones if it can move between zones and not prompt 903.9?

These rules are conflicting to me, and I understand this is a very small cornerstone. But I think this example is a breach of either rule 903.3 or 903.9. Could some one help me understand more on why this isn't the case?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 1:38 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
page04z wrote:
Quote:
903.3. Each deck has a legendary creature card designated as its commander. This designation is not a characteristic of the object represented by the card; rather, it is an attribute of the card itself. The card retains this designation even when it changes zones


Quote:
903.9. If a commander would be exiled from anywhere or put into its owner’s hand, graveyard, or library from anywhere, its owner may put it into the command zone instead. This replacement effect may apply more than once to the same event. This is an exception to rule 614.5.


I am having a hard time coming around to the fact that if 903.3 and 903.9 are both true, why your commander moving from a face down zone to another face down zone does not prompt a replacement option.

How can your commander, which retains its commander attribute while in all zones, move zones and you not be able to replace the move? For example, if my commander is put into my library and I don't replace the movement with the command zone, and then later it is exiled face down.

The card is supposed to still have its commander attribute right? It keeps it in all zones. How can it keep it's attribute as your commander and move from one zone to another and not prompt 903.9's replacement effect?

I've spoke with some judges, who have told me it's because of hidden and/or unknown information. I see their point, but why does 903.3 specify it retains its "commanderness" in all zones if it can move between zones and not prompt 903.9?

These rules are conflicting to me, and I understand this is a very small cornerstone. But I think this example is a breach of either rule 903.3 or 903.9. Could some one help me understand more on why this isn't the case?

you have a name. If you are standing behind me where I can't see you how am I supposed to know its you behind me?

The same applies to a commander. While the card is always you commander, never losing that designation even when changing zones and becoming a new object, there is no functional way to maintain awareness of which card is a commander in hidden zones except to mark the card (like with a colored sleeve). This goes against the rules of magic as a whole where hidden zones should keep information hidden.

This was a problem in the case of a commander being shuffled into a library or being placed on top of it then being exiled face down. This prompted some rules changes that fixed the issues in most cases.

To sum up, having the designation of commander does not mean you will always be aware of which card in a hidden zone is a commander. This does not mean it loses that designation. As humans we can always look back to earlier actions in the game if we cannot remember which card was the commander- you just ask, "who was your commander again?"

_________________
3DH4L1F3


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 2:02 am 

Joined: 2017-May-09 1:04 pm
Age: Wyvern
niheloim wrote:
you have a name. If you are standing behind me where I can't see you how am I supposed to know its you behind me?

The same applies to a commander. While the card is always you commander, never losing that designation even when changing zones and becoming a new object, there is no functional way to maintain awareness of which card is a commander in hidden zones except to mark the card (like with a colored sleeve). This goes against the rules of magic as a whole where hidden zones should keep information hidden.

This was a problem in the case of a commander being shuffled into a library or being placed on top of it then being exiled face down. This prompted some rules changes that fixed the issues in most cases.

To sum up, having the designation of commander does not mean you will always be aware of which card in a hidden zone is a commander. This does not mean it loses that designation. As humans we can always look back to earlier actions in the game if we cannot remember which card was the commander- you just ask, "who was your commander again?"


Thank you for the response.

I still feel this either violates 903.3 or 903.9 though. Both can't be true if your commander can move zones, even unknown ones (903.3 doesn't seem to care whether it is a hidden zone or not), and not prompt a replacement effect.

Either your commander loses its commander attribute while in the library or while face down in exile (violating 903.3).

Or your commander keeps its commander attribute but is allowed to be moved between specific hidden zones without prompting the replacement (violating 903.9).

Both simply cannot be true if your commander is allowed to move between your library and face down exile without being able to replace the move.

I understand that a library is random and you aren't supposed to know exactly where cards are in it. So believe me, I get the hidden zone/unknown information side of the argument against this. But as the rules are written, my interpretation is that one of these rules is being violated when your commander moves from your library to face down exile and doesn't prompt a replacement.

So 903.3 must care if it is a hidden zone, or 903.9 must care if it is moving between zones with hidden/unknown information.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 4:04 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Yes, there used to be a rule that said if a card was exiled face down and it could be a commander, then a player that was allowed to look at the ard, or a judge would have to verify if it was a commander and allow the iwner to replace the effect. However, once they changed the rules to say can replace tuck and bounce effects, they removed that rule because most of the time you aren't going to let your commander get tucked in the first place. So it's basically the risk you take to allow your general to be placed ontop of your library.

_________________
Kuro, Pitlord (Life gain)
Derevi (Manlands)
Marchesa (Modular)
Retired:
Krenko, Mob Boss (Goblins)
Zedruu the Christmas Goat (group hug)
Ramses Overdark (Assassin Deck)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 4:29 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
page04z wrote:
Both simply cannot be true if your commander is allowed to move between your library and face down exile without being able to replace the move.


They're not incompatible. A card can have an attribute that you are not currently aware of.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 5:01 am 

Joined: 2017-May-09 1:04 pm
Age: Wyvern
papa_funk wrote:
page04z wrote:
Both simply cannot be true if your commander is allowed to move between your library and face down exile without being able to replace the move.


They're not incompatible. A card can have an attribute that you are not currently aware of.


I'm glad a member of the rules committee was able to respond to my query. Thank you.

The problem arose a few months ago when I spoke to a few judges in the /r/mtgjudge IRC channel about Gonti and taking a person's commander. I was given the wrong information and linked to an old Genomancer post speaking of how commanders can be identified no matter where they are, and even when moving between hidden zones a player can still replace that move with the command zone.

And then a situation came up the other day with a few judges about how that actually isn't the case. I was then linked to posts here about the 2012 and 2016 addition and removal of the 903.10 and 903.11, the rule about how looking at a commander in a face down exiled zone causes it to immediately be moved to the command zone. While that is a similar event, it wasn't exactly what I was asking. Those rules were specifically meant to add the effect of looking at a face down exiled card and having to immediately put it in the command zone.

The more I searched, the more I could find no definitive answer to my question. And the rules seemed to be conflicting when it involves this exact scenario (to me).

Thank you for clearing it up for me.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 5:13 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
The problem with what Genomancer said is that it isn't humanly possible to track a commander through the library under normal conditions. So if the rules of commander are that a commander can always be tracked the game is asking me to do something that is impossible unless I mark my cards.

This lead to potential issues where a commander was exiled face down and the replacement effect could then not be applied even though it felt like it should- as in the case of an opponent being able to see that the exiled card was a commander.

_________________
3DH4L1F3


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 8:22 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
As I understand it, the Commander's location is always known, e.g. "in your hand", "on the battlefield", "in the library". So if an effect were to successfully shuffle a general into a library, you would know that it was in the library, but not which specific card (unless it was the top card and an Future Sight effect was in play). This ruling came up years ago regarding the use of a different sleeve for Commanders. Regarding cards exiled face down, if a card is exiled face down and any player is able to do so, then it is revealed and immediately placed in the Command Zone (providing the owner wishes it). The only exception is when a general is put into the library and then exiled with a card such as Pyxis of Pandemonium. Because PoP does not let players look at the cards exiled face down, there is no opportunity for a card to be identified as a General (yes, even if you literally just Hindered it to the top of the library.... although doing this with an active Future Sight would be interesting).


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 10:44 am 

Joined: 2017-May-09 1:04 pm
Age: Wyvern
cryogen wrote:
As I understand it, the Commander's location is always known, e.g. "in your hand", "on the battlefield", "in the library". So if an effect were to successfully shuffle a general into a library, you would know that it was in the library, but not which specific card (unless it was the top card and an Future Sight effect was in play). This ruling came up years ago regarding the use of a different sleeve for Commanders. Regarding cards exiled face down, if a card is exiled face down and any player is able to do so, then it is revealed and immediately placed in the Command Zone (providing the owner wishes it). The only exception is when a general is put into the library and then exiled with a card such as Pyxis of Pandemonium. Because PoP does not let players look at the cards exiled face down, there is no opportunity for a card to be identified as a General (yes, even if you literally just Hindered it to the top of the library.... although doing this with an active Future Sight would be interesting).


It is my understanding that they have removed the ruling stating that if a card is exiled face down and you are allowed to look at it, you must do so and if it is a commander you must put it into the command zone.

I would think the commander would be subject to rule 903.9 if a future sight reveals a commander on top of your library, and it would be moved to any of the zones listed in 903.9 (even a face down exile like Pyxis).

At least I'm basing that assumption off the fact that they (the RC) have just clarified the only reason 903.9 doesn't apply is because it is hidden information when dealing with a library to face down exile of your commander. Future sight makes the top card public information, so it should apply.

Edit: In regards to knowing the location of your commander (in hand, library, etc..). I'm not sure that is true either. I mean you can deduce where a commander is based on the history of actions that have taken place. But if you would shuffle it into your library, as soon as the player draws any card that information is no longer accurate. The same goes for in a players hand, if a Bane Alley Broker is on the battlefield and they exile a card face down using her ability, that information again is no longer accurate. And I'm not absolutely certain the player would be forced to reveal that information either, I would assume not.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 11:13 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
It is my understanding that they have removed the ruling stating that if a card is exiled face down and you are allowed to look at it, you must do so and if it is a commander you must put it into the command zone.

Source?
Quote:
I would think the commander would be subject to rule 903.9 if a future sight reveals a commander on top of your library, and it would be moved to any of the zones listed in 903.9 (even a face down exile like Pyxis).

Well keep in mind that that in almost every zone change excluding the stack, the owner of the general has the option to move the general to the Command Zone as a replacement effect. So when a general would be moved to the library, the owner has the option of placing it in the Command Zone instead. Once that decision has been made and it is in the library, you cannot later decide to place it in the Command Zone. And remember, the reason the exception for Pyxis exists is because you are not allowed to look at the cards exiled by it, therefore there is no way to determine that a General has been exiled. Even when we "know" what the top card of a library is, strictly by the rules it is a hidden zone.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 11:41 am 

Joined: 2017-May-09 1:04 pm
Age: Wyvern
cryogen wrote:
Source?


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18295

Quote:
Even when we "know" what the top card of a library is, strictly by the rules it is a hidden zone.


Know as in we scry'd it to the top, or know as in future sight has modified the rules to reveal the top card of our library?

I couldn't tell you if there is a difference between the two and hidden zones as far as the game cares. It would help if a judge or RC would chime in on this point.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 12:43 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Page04b beat me to it. This is the link to the update which glosses over the removal of the rule on point number 4: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17560

_________________
Kuro, Pitlord (Life gain)
Derevi (Manlands)
Marchesa (Modular)
Retired:
Krenko, Mob Boss (Goblins)
Zedruu the Christmas Goat (group hug)
Ramses Overdark (Assassin Deck)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 1:53 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I'm glad the rule is gone... it was stupid weird to read.

_________________
3DH4L1F3


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-10 9:21 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well thank you for this reminder of the clarification. I stand corrected.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 903.3 and 903.9 regarding hidden zones.
AgePosted: 2017-May-11 9:33 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
page04z wrote:
I would think the commander would be subject to rule 903.9 if a future sight reveals a commander on top of your library, and it would be moved to any of the zones listed in 903.9 (even a face down exile like Pyxis).

At least I'm basing that assumption off the fact that they (the RC) have just clarified the only reason 903.9 doesn't apply is because it is hidden information when dealing with a library to face down exile of your commander. Future sight makes the top card public information, so it should apply.

To my reading of the rules, this is not the case. A hidden zone is defined in the rules (400.2) and specifies that the library and hand are hidden zones, even if all the cards in that zone are revealed. So even if your commander ends up on top of your library, and it is revealed by some continuous effect, if it is exiled by an effect like pyxis since no-one is allowed to look at that face down card, rule 903.9 doesn't apply.

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: