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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-29 3:19 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
It's not a banned list; it's a permissive list

toe-may-toe vs toe-mah-toe.

Call it what you like, it's the same damn thing. In fact, your way of thinking of it is worse, as your list will continuously grow, while a 'banned' list is just static.

And just looking at what set your planeswalker is from fails as soon as they do something like reprint baby-jace as a standard card (And they're bringing back core sets -- so I'm assuming that's a 'when' not an 'if'). Because not only do you need to know what sets are allowed, you also need to know all sets that your potential commander card was printed in.

I don't see Pauper players complaining about it. We aren't exactly talking about allowing cards that have never been allowed in any form (like Un-cards, for example *cough cough*). We are talking about an effective errata, which is NOT the same damn thing.
Quote:
Just because you don't agree completely with it doesn't really matter. The removal of it points the format rules in a certain direction... and you're proposing that we go contrary to it. Good luck in that fight.

I'm not fighting. As I said, I agree with your ultimate conclusion on the planeswalker commander topic. That doesn't mean I agree completely with how you got there, nor does it mean that your condescending remarks about my disagreement make for particularly convincing arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-29 11:44 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
This appears to have necroed minutes after I submitted the mailbag column for next week. I think it's the longest answer in the column.


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-31 2:08 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
I don't see Pauper players complaining about it.
They signed up for that when they found out what the format is about. Commander players didn't. That's a pretty significant difference.

MMLgamer wrote:
We are talking about an effective errata, which is NOT the same damn thing.

Wait... when the hell did errata (effective or otherwise) come into this conversation?

MMLgamer wrote:
That doesn't mean I agree completely with how you got there, nor does it mean that your condescending remarks about my disagreement make for particularly convincing arguments.

Well, your disagreement was brought up as an argument -- and it's not a good argument. At all. You also implied that the decision for it was to satisfy those who can't keep up with it ("lowest common denominator") .. so.. you started the condescending remarks. If you don't like them turned on you, you should probably stay away from them yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-01 11:55 am 

Joined: 2017-May-17 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Swmystery wrote:
nickp2115 wrote:
Honestly if the cost of playing Planeswalkers as Commanders is a ban on Tezzeret, I'd be fine with it. By focusing on 3-5 powerful Planeswalkers you're ignoring the fact that there would be over 100 new options and growing. Looking at the color restrictions of many Planeswalkers, it might also bring some real identity to something like Mono-white without just ramping into Avacyn or Elesh Norn.


Why is adding more options to the format automatically a good thing? I don't grant that premise, and I have no idea what you mean by "real identity".


Really? When have you been happier with fewer options? Options it one of the main draws to eternal formats as a whole according to Wizards polling. Also, by "real identity" I mean more valid strategies. There's so much depth and flavor in Walkers card design, and depth tends to be accentuated in the Command Zone when you can consistently see a card. It sounded better in my head than it sounded when reading it, apologies.
Swmystery wrote:
nickp2115 wrote:
Regarding a Doubling Season ban, I have yet to see a reasonable argument for a Food Chain, Triskelion, or even a Pestermite ban. That's what you're arguing for, but worse because the interaction isn't even infinite. The most problematic pieces are Tamiyo/Sarkhan, but you have to stick a 5-mana enchantment AND stick Tamiyo/Sarkhan without any interaction. If your playgroup has no answer for that, then they weren't prepared for the combo in the 99 either.


I'm not arguing for a ban on anything- I like Doubling Season being legal, just as I like Tamiyo and Sorin and Ugin being legal. That's precisely why I'm against legalising them as Commanders, because I am against adding further problematic interactions to a format that already has so many of them. And if Food Chain, Pestermite or Triskelion could be your Commander, I guarantee you there would be (reasonably justified) calls to ban them.

You literally said we would have to ban Doubling Season if Planeswalkers were legalized as Commanders. And Mike/Trike and Prossh/Chain are notable 2-card combos with Commanders. This is one of the factors you were arguing makes Walkers "obnoxious" earlier. I am arguing against your points. I may have interpreted them in a way you don't agree with, but that's the fault of the author as much as the reader.
Swmystery wrote:
nickp2115 wrote:
That's the thing. All of these cards are already legal in the format. Wouldn't you think that, if they were so damaging to the format, we would already see at least an echo of what a Planeswalker Commander would do?


Nope. I do not think anything like that, because being in the 99 and broadly non-recurable is nothing like starting in the Command Zone, having an entire deck built around them, and able to come back over and over again. The only "echo" of what a Tamiyo commander could do is in the Doubling Season + her interaction, and that's powerful and annoying enough that I don't think it's a good idea for players to have access to that interaction any more consistently than they presently can.

That's a reasonable point, but I don't believe it's valid. With all of the tutors and recursion in the format, it's unreasonable to assume that a player can't build around a 2 card interaction even if a piece isn't in the Command Zone. Commander is an eternal format with hundreds of interesting and powerful interactions, and I don't believe a combination with a 5-mana enchantment is worth the blockade of the notion that Planeswalkers could be Commanders. There will be powerful interactions between cards in Commander whether you like it or not, so why not give people more options?

It sounds like all the people that were crying for JTMS to stay on the Modern Banlist because he was "too broken", yet he hasn't had a major appearance at a high level event even now. It's just another good option for players to use in the format they enjoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-01 1:54 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
nickp2115 wrote:
Quote:
Why is adding more options automatically a good thing?

Really? When have you been happier with fewer options?

You're right. The format would be better if we had the option to play Erayo as a commander, or play Swords to Plowshares in a BUG deck, or include 10 copies of Mana Crypt in a deck.

The bolded part of Swmystery's quote is the important part. There are literally millions of different ways that more "options" could be added to the format. But adding options in and of itself is not a strong enough argument.

Quote:
There's so much depth and flavor in Walkers card design

Just saying something vague and good-sounding doesn't make it true. You need to provide actual evidence of this claim. And while there are certain Walkers for whom this is true (Kaya, and Ashiok being two of the better examples IMO), most planeswalkers are simply 2 powerful utility effects and one potential win-condition all slapped haphazardly together. Most planewalkers fit into one of two categories: the Chandra Nalaar camp of "do the same kind of thing 3 ways" or the Garruk Wildspeaker camp of "3 abilities that make sense for the color." Sure, there's flavor and backstory to the characters, but the cards themselves have very little mechanical flavor to them, also known as the "build around me" factor. As a result, it seems pretty damn likely that planeswalker generals would have a greater-than-average propensity to be at the helm of more goodstuff decks, which I think is the exact opposite of what most people actually want from this format.

Quote:
And Mike/Trike and Prossh/Chain are notable 2-card combos with Commanders.
Yeah, both of those cards combo with 1 commander each. As opposed to Doubling Season, which combos hard with multiple and is still absurdly powerful with plenty others. And again, Doubling Season is not the only offender like this, merely the worst. Deepglow Skate, proliferate effects, The chain veil, more mass removal cards, all of these are instant format staples if PW's become legal as generals.

nickp2115 wrote:
With all of the tutors and recursion in the format, it's unreasonable to assume that a player can't build around a 2 card interaction even if a piece isn't in the Command Zone.
This point has been answered multiple times, at least once by me. If you're playing that kind of deck where you're building around 1 or 2 cards in the 99 and the best way to tutor them out, then EDH is not the format for you.

This argument is also self-defeating, since it being valid would only make the problems with PWs interacting with other cards even worse. What's to stop every single black deck PW deck from tutoring up Lethal Vapors and friends? Or for Tamiyo decks to get Doubling Season every game? Sure, we're playing in a format where that type of antisocial crap is possible, but I'd rather not have it be a format where it all is common.

Quote:
It sounds like all the people that were crying for JTMS to stay on the Modern Banlist because he was "too broken", yet he hasn't had a major appearance at a high level event even now. It's just another good option for players to use in the format they enjoy.

It sounds like that to you because you haven't gotten the idea that the format's rules and banlists are not designed to police competitive play. Also, talk about a false analogy. Legalizing one card is not the same as changing a fundamental rule of a format. The possible ramifications are not even remotely comparable in terms of scale or quality.

_________________
Current Generals:
III Omnath, Locus of Mana III Thada Adel, Acquisitor III Geth, Lord of the Vault III Eight-and-a-Half-Tails III Zo-Zu the Punisher III BruseIkra III Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis III Kess, Dissident Mage, III AkriSilas III Grenzo, Havoc Raiser III Ghalta, Primal Hunger III Ambassador Laquatus III Anax and Cymede III Sidisi, Brood Tyrant III Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest III Ghave, Guru of Spores III Zurgo Helmsmasher III Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder III


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-01 10:54 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Kong has made most of the replies I would have made, so let me pick up a couple of points:

nickp2115 wrote:
It sounds like all the people that were crying for JTMS to stay on the Modern Banlist because he was "too broken", yet he hasn't had a major appearance at a high level event even now. It's just another good option for players to use in the format they enjoy.


For. The. Last. Time:

This is not a matter of power level. This is a matter of the types of games and experiences planeswalker commanders (broadly) create. This is partially but not entirely a matter of what people find enjoyable and fun- this is subjective, of course, but there are observable patterns. Most people don't enjoy games which routinely end in T4 or playing against "you can't do anything" Stax builds, for example.

Getting randomly murdered by Sorin, everyone losing on the spot to Tamiyo or Sarkhan, and the various other "feel bads" they create are just more things we don't need in the format- but these cards are also fine and valuable in the 99, so we shouldn't ban them either. Solution? The current rules.

nickp2115 wrote:
Really? When have you been happier with fewer options? Options it one of the main draws to eternal formats as a whole according to Wizards polling.


Prophet of Kruphix ban. Sylvan Primordial ban. I love the colour identity rules and wish they were more restrictive (e.g. in regard to off-colour fetchlands). I'd have been happier if basically all the C13 Commanders (Oloro, Prossh, Derevi, Nekusar) never existed. I want Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Iona banned yesterday. I could keep going.

This format has and has had a bunch of mistakes in it, cards that should never have been printed as they were or allowed in the format in the first place. They mostly aren't obnoxious enough to ban, but I can honestly I say wish they didn't exist and I'd be a lot happier if they didn't.

nickp2115 wrote:
You literally said we would have to ban Doubling Season if Planeswalkers were legalized as Commanders.


And we would. That is not the same as me arguing for a ban on Doubling Season (et al). The entire purpose of my opposing planeswalker commanders is to prevent further bannings of cards that don't warrant it otherwise.

nickp2115 wrote:
And Mike/Trike and Prossh/Chain are notable 2-card combos with Commanders. This is one of the factors you were arguing makes Walkers "obnoxious".


Right. And I'm not in favour of adding any more obnoxious interactions to the format than already exist. I like the total number of obnoxious things in the format to be as low as possible.

nickp2115 wrote:
That's a reasonable point, but I don't believe it's valid. With all of the tutors and recursion in the format, it's unreasonable to assume that a player can't build around a 2 card interaction even if a piece isn't in the Command Zone. Commander is an eternal format with hundreds of interesting and powerful interactions, and I don't believe a combination with a 5-mana enchantment is worth the blockade of the notion that Planeswalkers could be Commanders. There will be powerful interactions between cards in Commander whether you like it or not, so why not give people more options?


For the bold- see the above answer. I am in favour of actively working to police the number of bad things in EDH- this is not a widely accepted position- and part of doing that is not making any rule changes that add more of those bad things into the format. "It gives more options!" is not an acceptable reason to do this- doing away with colour identity would also give people many more options, and it's obviously not a good idea to do that.

_________________
Current Commanders: 6/32.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Prime Speaker Zegana (Simic Voltron).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (Mardu Judo).


Last edited by Swmystery on 2018-Apr-03 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-03 12:18 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Well, your disagreement was brought up as an argument -- and it's not a good argument. At all. You also implied that the decision for it was to satisfy those who can't keep up with it ("lowest common denominator") .. so.. you started the condescending remarks. If you don't like them turned on you, you should probably stay away from them yourself.

No I did not start them. There was literally no clear reason to take away Banned as Commander except to remove "information overhead" therefore my argument was to bring up an objective truth. Your reply was to claim that my opinion didn't matter which amounts to little more than a condescending appeal to authority.

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-03 8:56 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Its the way you stated it.

Consider: Tom earns more than Jim. vs Tom's time is more valuable than Jim's.

Both can be referring to the same thing, however the first is a flat fact, while the latter has more subjectivity to it and can easily be read with a condescending tone.

Your reference to "Lowest common denominator" did the latter. There's a difference between saying "We want to keep things simple" and "we don't want to estrange people who find it hard to keep track of multiple things." You took the second route - the one that implies people are either dumb or can't maintain focus of multiple things.

Unless you have somewhere some proof that was the reasoning, then your personal beliefs on the matter are shining through, and they are condescending in nature to other players.


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-03 1:18 pm 
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Swmystery wrote:

This is not a matter of power level. This is a matter of the types of games and experiences planeswalker commanders (broadly) create. This is partially but not entirely a matter of what people find enjoyable and fun- this is subjective, of course, but there are observable patterns. Most people don't enjoy games which routinely end in T4 or playing against "you can't do anything" Stax builds, for example.

Getting randomly murdered by Sorin, everyone losing on the spot to Tamiyo or Sarkhan, and the various other "feel bads" they create are just more things we don't need in the format- but these cards are also fine and valuable in the 99, so we shouldn't ban them either. Solution? The current rules.



Stax: Derevi, Zur, Narset, Grand Arbiter

One-Shot.dec: Kaalia, Animar, Narset again, Prossh, and probably at least another half dozen or so commanders

how is doing it with walkers any different than the format is now exactly?

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-03 10:09 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
Swmystery wrote:

This is not a matter of power level. This is a matter of the types of games and experiences planeswalker commanders (broadly) create. This is partially but not entirely a matter of what people find enjoyable and fun- this is subjective, of course, but there are observable patterns. Most people don't enjoy games which routinely end in T4 or playing against "you can't do anything" Stax builds, for example.

Getting randomly murdered by Sorin, everyone losing on the spot to Tamiyo or Sarkhan, and the various other "feel bads" they create are just more things we don't need in the format- but these cards are also fine and valuable in the 99, so we shouldn't ban them either. Solution? The current rules.



Stax: Derevi, Zur, Narset, Grand Arbiter

One-Shot.dec: Kaalia, Animar, Narset again, Prossh, and probably at least another half dozen or so commanders

how is doing it with walkers any different than the format is now exactly?


It isn't. However, if you had read a little further down...

Me wrote:
Right. And I'm not in favour of adding any more obnoxious interactions to the format than already exist. I like the total number of obnoxious things in the format to be as low as possible.


Or from my prior posts:

Also Me wrote:
In essence, no planeswalker commander breaks the format, but a lot of them would create the kind of negative experiences that are the opposite of the kind of game the RC wants to foster.


Now, a lot of the Commanders you mention also create those kinds of negative experiences more often than not. That is exactly why I would shed zero tears if half of them mysteriously disappeared from the format overnight.

But that is not a reason to allow more of them into the format to make the problem even worse than it already is.

_________________
Current Commanders: 6/32.

Daretti, Scrap Savant (Red Artefacts).
Prime Speaker Zegana (Simic Voltron).
Rubinia Soulsinger (Bant Polymorphs).
Kess, Dissident Mage (Grixis Treasure).
Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper (Jund Apostles).
Tariel, Reckoner of Souls (Mardu Judo).


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-04 5:53 am 
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Swmystery wrote:

Me wrote:
Right. And I'm not in favour of adding any more obnoxious interactions to the format than already exist. I like the total number of obnoxious things in the format to be as low as possible.


Or from my prior posts:

Also Me wrote:
In essence, no planeswalker commander breaks the format, but a lot of them would create the kind of negative experiences that are the opposite of the kind of game the RC wants to foster.


Now, a lot of the Commanders you mention also create those kinds of negative experiences more often than not. That is exactly why I would shed zero tears if half of them mysteriously disappeared from the format overnight.

But that is not a reason to allow more of them into the format to make the problem even worse than it already is.


Except, it can't get even worse than it already is. According to the RC the player is the problem not the cards, and the ratio of jackass cards may go up, but the ratio of jackass players will stay about the same save for maybe a few people who are to stupid to understand what a card does before they use it as a general.

And we already have those people too:

"I didn't know I'd just use zur to search for contamination every game."

"I didn't know animar could combo out on turn 3 every game"

"I didn't know putting MLD in my tribal birds deck would piss everyone off"

And to continue, every time a new set releases there are at least a few new cards just just scream "use while new to excuse being a jackass" like Overwhelming Splendor. Anyone who uses that card should know exactly the reaction it's going to pull and deserves to deal with the hate accordingly.

So, it's still a player problem, not a card problem. Because if it were a card problem, all the BS would have been dealt with years ago and the RC wouldn't be sitting around each quarter throwing darts at a dartboard with a bullseye marked "actually do something" whilst simultaneously being really bad at darts. I mean it's all the players' fault right? Why should they have to do anything? Just stop playing with them, it'll fix all your problems, and it's not like you'll just be left with no one to play with or anything.

So if you couldn't tell, I actually agree with you 100%. I absolutely want as much obnoxious crap pitched out of the format as possible, but realistically under it's current philosophy bringing in more obnoxious crap won't actually matter because we aren't going to solve the obnoxious crap problem that already exists so it really can't get any worse.

_________________
Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-04 6:50 am 
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Gath Immortal wrote:
it really can't get any worse.

This is where you may find people disagree with you. I know I do. And really that's the contention to your whole point.

Just because someone can do jerk plays doesn't mean we should let them do more consistently. It doesn't mean we should help them by making it easier for them.

We're talking about a change to the rules -- and the general consensus seems to be: The benefit doesn't outweigh the drawback.

You're saying: We already have some of that drawback around, so why not have more of it!

I know misery loves company and all that... but still...


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-04 7:49 am 
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Honestly, if the meta where you play is that toxic I don't even understand why you'd ever play EDH (or Magic in general) in the first place. The vast majority of posts you've ever made paint this picture of the people you play with either being a bunch of colossal jerks or so stupid that they have trouble remembering to breathe. Especially with the three quotes you just gave, it's pretty clear that these are people who know what they're doing is wrong but are more than ok with doing it anyway. The RC could ban half the generals and cards in the format and those people would still be exactly as much of idiots as they are now.

And as an aside, anyone who combos out with Animar turn 3 every game is cheating their ass off. Even getting it consistently on turn 5 or six is far easier said than done.

_________________
Current Generals:
III Omnath, Locus of Mana III Thada Adel, Acquisitor III Geth, Lord of the Vault III Eight-and-a-Half-Tails III Zo-Zu the Punisher III BruseIkra III Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis III Kess, Dissident Mage, III AkriSilas III Grenzo, Havoc Raiser III Ghalta, Primal Hunger III Ambassador Laquatus III Anax and Cymede III Sidisi, Brood Tyrant III Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest III Ghave, Guru of Spores III Zurgo Helmsmasher III Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder III


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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-04 1:03 pm 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Honestly, if the meta where you play is that toxic I don't even understand why you'd ever play EDH (or Magic in general) in the first place. The vast majority of posts you've ever made paint this picture of the people you play with either being a bunch of colossal jerks or so stupid that they have trouble remembering to breathe. Especially with the three quotes you just gave, it's pretty clear that these are people who know what they're doing is wrong but are more than ok with doing it anyway. The RC could ban half the generals and cards in the format and those people would still be exactly as much of idiots as they are now.

And as an aside, anyone who combos out with Animar turn 3 every game is cheating their ass off. Even getting it consistently on turn 5 or six is far easier said than done.


To be really frank, it read more to me like he'd read the cEDH Tier List without fully grokking it's context or purpose. Very few of the generals in tier 1/1.5 are especially anti-social for casual play. Animar is a strange choice for something to complain about- but in context he'd probably parsed the most tuned, established competitive Animar deck, rather the myriad of novel, fun Animar variants. This is because tier lists, are not by nature representative of power- but of metagame analysis. The tier 1/1.5 Generals have very tuned, established lists that are ideal gauntlet decks if you're trying to play cEDH- and the tier 2/2.5 generally have established deck archetypes- but don't have access to the tools that allow them to "Oops" all over their opponents.

This, would, potentially lead someone to believe that the format is less malleable than it is- as there isn't a true power level difference between Tier 1 and Tier 3 generals, but Tier 2.5-3 Generals have to play fairer variants (resulting in fewer actual win setups like Laboratory Maniac) and wholly glosses over that cEDH takes severe advantage of the Vintage cardpool to push 28-35 land decks with fastrocks- which makes the game warp significantly in favor of combo elements over merely synergistic or high utility ones.

Iirc, Gath mentioned that my having regular playgroups is a "luxury that not everyone has." Leading me to decide that trying to persuade or engage him in discussion surrounding the health of the format will be tedious, and difficult to articulate productively- since he either doesn't play EDH to socialize (like most of us,) or has the misfortune of just not having access to enough Magic players or people open to tabletop games to do so. Either way, it isn't something that I feel should be held against him- but it does impact the flavor of his input on matters like analysis of proposed format changes.

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 Post subject: Re: Why haven't we allowed Planeswalkers as Commanders yet?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-04 2:09 pm 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
To be really frank, it read more to me like he'd read the cEDH Tier List without fully grokking it's context or purpose.
After spending several years sharing this forum with him, I'm pretty sure that this is simply not the case. Most of the cards that he tends to complain about are the type of cards that should be avoided in a casual group but are barely viable in cEDH, such as DEN or the example from the last post, Overwhelming Splendor.

And this recent post stuck out to me in particular because of his quotes of players in the group. cEDH players don't apologize for abusing Contamination in Zur, they build Animar as a midrange combo-control deck rather than as a speed combo, the only general for whom UW fliers is even viable absolutely HATES mass land destruction, and no true cEDH list would ever include Overwhelming Splendor. This is not a situation of someone who wants casual games stuck in an environment of cEDH. This is someone who wants enjoyable games stuck in an environment of incredibly selfish people who don't give a flying rat's ass about anyone else's fun. The part of his post where I think he absolutely hit the nail on the head:
Quote:
Overwhelming Splendor. Anyone who uses that card should know exactly the reaction it's going to pull and deserves to deal with the hate accordingly.
Cards like Splendor are not Spike cards, they're just straight up dick cards. There is no reason to run cards like it except to steal someone else's enjoyment out of the game. And as long as there are people who play EDH with that mentality, the only way to get around that with a banned list is to ban so many things that the format's effectively pauper. Even if the RC were to get rid of all of the worst offenders like Splendor or Wit's End or what have you there'd still be things like using Rite of Replication on a Terastodon or building goddamn wheel decks.

Quote:
The tier 1/1.5 Generals have very tuned, established lists that are ideal gauntlet decks if you're trying to play cEDH- and the tier 2/2.5 generally have established deck archetypes- but don't have access to the tools that allow them to "Oops" all over their opponents.
Nitpick, but this isn't completely accurate. The best comparison I can make would be Omnath, Locus of Mana vs Kruphix, God of Horizons. Your average Omnath deck tends to be a lot more explode-y than a Kruphix one is, but when the decklists are tuned and optimized Kruphix tends to be more resilient and consistent. There's also cases like Alesha and Teneb, both of which are fantastic decks on their own but are simply outclassed by Meren.

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Iirc, Gath mentioned that my having regular playgroups is a "luxury that not everyone has." Leading me to decide that trying to persuade or engage him in discussion surrounding the health of the format will be tedious, and difficult to articulate productively- since he either doesn't play EDH to socialize (like most of us,) or has the misfortune of just not having access to enough Magic players or people open to tabletop games to do so. Either way, it isn't something that I feel should be held against him- but it does impact the flavor of his input on matters like analysis of proposed format changes.
Believe me, I empathize with his situation. Up until a couple years ago, I was in a pretty similar situation. My collection was far larger than that of most of my friends (and I was a better player and deckbuilder anyway), but I didn't quite have the money or desire to build a deck that was cutthroat enough to compete at my local LGS. It sucked, and for the most part I spent most of my time deckbuilding and chatting on forums like this one. I think I played maybe ten or so games per year. There was just no point to me playing because most of the people I played with either didn't want to play to socialize or were so underpowered that I'd always be the archenemy.

Even then, I did my best to minimize how much my own experiences colored how I argued and debated about how the format as a whole should be run. I've always tried to argue from a perspective of what the format should like like for a group of people who actually give a damn about the rest of the players' enjoyment and aren't just selfishly decksturbating, or even worse playing cards that do nothing but make others miserable. That's the kind of playgroup this format was designed for and the vision that the RC seems to have when they make decisions about the format.

Gath's playgroup clearly is not those types of players, and he knows it, yet continues after years on the forum to argue as though the RC is or should be building their format around policing the problems that arise with a playgroup like that. To use an analogy, it feels to me like he's attempting to use a wrench to tighten or loosen screws. It might work on a rare occasion, but the odds of that happening are minuscule at best. And it may even be the case that these particular screw heads are so worn and tarnished that even a normal screwdriver isn't effective, but that's no reason to constantly complain about the fact that the wrench isn't doing any better.

_________________
Current Generals:
III Omnath, Locus of Mana III Thada Adel, Acquisitor III Geth, Lord of the Vault III Eight-and-a-Half-Tails III Zo-Zu the Punisher III BruseIkra III Kynaios and Tiro of Meletis III Kess, Dissident Mage, III AkriSilas III Grenzo, Havoc Raiser III Ghalta, Primal Hunger III Ambassador Laquatus III Anax and Cymede III Sidisi, Brood Tyrant III Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest III Ghave, Guru of Spores III Zurgo Helmsmasher III Yidris, Maelstrom Wielder III


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