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Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18627
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Author:  Sid the Chicken [ 2019-Feb-02 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

spacemonaut wrote:
I'd feel bad for a person being locked out of the game too, just not bad enough for that particular person to free them. "You don't get to play meaningfully or at all" stax decks reliably make up my worst experiences in EDH.

Likewise.

Author:  MRHblue [ 2019-Feb-04 6:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

Hopefully Josh and other members of the CAG bring forth stuff like the most recent episode of Game Knights to show why it should be banned.

Author:  Viperion [ 2019-Feb-04 7:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

You can't ban cards just because they win games. That way lies madness.

Besides it was the combination of Planar Portal --> Emrakul, Expropriate, and two other extra turn spells that won that game. And terrible, horrible, no good, very bad threat assessment by everyone else at the table.

Author:  Sheldon [ 2019-Feb-04 7:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

Magic cards are allowed to be good. Excellent even.

Author:  MRHblue [ 2019-Feb-05 7:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

Sheldon wrote:
Magic cards are allowed to be good. Excellent even.
I get that, and totally agree.

At some point I think this is going to hit Prophet of Kruphix land, and think the CAG will highlight that.

Author:  cryogen [ 2019-Feb-05 8:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

Is the card centralizing though?

Author:  MRHblue [ 2019-Feb-05 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

cryogen wrote:
Is the card centralizing though?
I think it is getting there. I have seen people playing a lot more Warping Wail and Pyroblast. Now it may never get that tag because it is not a creature, we shall see.

I think its much more likely to run into a Trade Secrets like ban where " It just doesn't add enough to the format to justify the games that it single-handedly ruins." I understand part of the issue with TS was a collusion issue, I was on the TS ban train WAY back when it was reprinted in Kaalia. But I think that sentence says a lot.

I am also not saying its some obvious slam-dunk. Maybe I am just sick of it right now, and it will stop being so pervasive. It may leak back into Craterhoof land where people get sick of seeing it AND playing it.

Author:  cryogen [ 2019-Feb-05 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

MRHblue wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Is the card centralizing though?
I think it is getting there. I have seen people playing a lot more Warping Wail and Pyroblast. Now it may never get that tag because it is not a creature, we shall see.

I think its much more likely to run into a Trade Secrets like ban where " It just doesn't add enough to the format to justify the games that it single-handedly ruins." I understand part of the issue with TS was a collusion issue, I was on the TS ban train WAY back when it was reprinted in Kaalia. But I think that sentence says a lot.

I am also not saying its some obvious slam-dunk. Maybe I am just sick of it right now, and it will stop being so pervasive. It may leak back into Craterhoof land where people get sick of seeing it AND playing it.

I only ask be cause it isn't a card that shows up in my meta that much. But if people are playing Warping Wail because of it.... *shudders*

Author:  kirkusjones [ 2019-Feb-05 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

Aren't we the format of big, splashy, game ending spells? Would you expect anything less powerful/splashy for 9 mana? I know people find ways around the casting cost. My friend plays it in Jhoira. It's a beating. But 9 times out of ten, it ends the game and we play again.

If you want long, drawn out games that end with Rube-Goldberg-Heart-of-the-Cards combos or creature damage, that's cool too. But this format should also be a home for big, splashy "I Win" buttons too. If you don't like them, you can pick up your deck and sit down at another table, play the arch-enemy game and go after the expropriate player or have a conversation with said individual.

Author:  spacemonaut [ 2019-Feb-05 10:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

kirkusjones wrote:
Aren't we the format of big, splashy, game ending spells? Would you expect anything less powerful/splashy for 9 mana? I know people find ways around the casting cost. My friend plays it in Jhoira. It's a beating. But 9 times out of ten, it ends the game and we play again.

If you want long, drawn out games that end with Rube-Goldberg-Heart-of-the-Cards combos or creature damage, that's cool too. But this format should also be a home for big, splashy "I Win" buttons too. If you don't like them, you can pick up your deck and sit down at another table, play the arch-enemy game and go after the expropriate player or have a conversation with said individual.

I don't think anyone minds big splashy "I win" cards, nobody's complained here about Rise of the Dark Realms. Expropriate just seems to be a card that feels bad to interact with.

Author:  kirkusjones [ 2019-Feb-05 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

spacemonaut wrote:
I don't think anyone minds big splashy "I win" cards, nobody's complained here about Rise of the Dark Realms. Expropriate just seems to be a card that feels bad to interact with.


But why? Is it the card itself, the type(s) of decks Expropriate is played in or the pilots of said decks?

Author:  Shabbaman [ 2019-Feb-05 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

kirkusjones wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
I don't think anyone minds big splashy "I win" cards, nobody's complained here about Rise of the Dark Realms. Expropriate just seems to be a card that feels bad to interact with.


But why? Is it the card itself, the type(s) of decks Expropriate is played in or the pilots of said decks?


I guess there are two elements to this:
1. People hate other people getting extra turns. Just like some people don't like to get their stuff countered/stolen/destroyed. Sometimes I wonder how a game of EDH could possibly end if all complaints are taken seriously and every card is banned and nobody plays counter/theft/removal spells.
2. People like choice, but don't like poor choices of others. Where poor is in the eye of the beholder, obviously. Couple this to #1 above, and the card is a recipe for disaster. "Why didn't he pick the other option, grrr".

Author:  CrazyPierre [ 2019-Mar-17 12:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

I have never seen this card in our Commander meta.
The comp people are just casting Ad Nauseam to win on turn 2-4, or doing obnoxious stuff.
The casual people are just recurring Strip Mine/Wasteland/Cycle lands from Life from the Loam or Crucible or playing Seizan Group Hug.

There are many, many other cards I'd bad before Expro. I mean, we'll just Jokulhaups and Splendid Reclamation before it becomes an issue. :p

Author:  cheethorne [ 2019-Mar-21 4:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

kirkusjones wrote:
I know people find ways around the casting cost.


This is probably the biggest problem people have with it. Personally, I think there is nothing wrong with huge spells that cause massive swings in the game, that eve end the game, because games do have to end at some point. However, when spells can be cheated or you have a player that constantly and consistently ramps and tutors to the same end-state every time, that is just annoying.

In those cases, the proper action would be to ban the enablers of that sort of strategy and not the game winning spell. Since decks that cheat out things will just move on to another game winning spell, Expropriate is the symptom of that problem, if it is a problem, which is probably isn't.

Author:  kaldare [ 2019-Mar-25 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?

Expropriate has two issues.

The first is the same issue that every extra turn card has... they're a little obnoxious by their very nature, and that can be *greatly* amplified when people play them without having any kind of plan and/or when played by people who are already slow players. But slow players are *always* annoying, and there are a *lot* of types of effects that make the game worse when played without a plan. Some of them are quite frankly a *lot* worse than extra turns in this respect. (Armageddon anyone?) Frankly, when played by a reasonable player who has a plan and plays at a reasonable pace, an extra turn here should not be a problem. One of the thorniest issues with Extra Turns IMHO is recursion... and Expropriate thankfully exiles itself, mostly avoiding this issue. In that regard, an Expropriate is, in my experience, *less* likely to ruin a game of commander played by people with good threat assessment than a Time Warp, because the Time Warp is almost certain to happen multiple times, while the Expropriate is rather unlikely to.

The second issue lies with the "good threat assessment" I mention above. Expropriate should very seldom give it's caster more than one extra turn, but bad decision making by inexperienced players can make it spiral out of control rather quickly. But again... there are a *lot* of cards that can exploit bad/selfish decision making by a player or two to wreak the game. Expropriate isn't unique in that regard, and it also costs a lot more mana (and $ for that matter) then most such cards, meaning it's not going to happen as often or as early. (Tempt with Discovery was Notorious for ruining games in my area before people finally learned to not give the caster 5+ lands on turn 3.

Overall, Expropriate is very powerful, somewhat annoying on its face, and has the potential to ruin games if people make poor decisions... but it's also a 9 drop that self-exiles and it's pretty easy to learn how to make it *not* break games if it becomes prevalent. It's certainly on my list of "Evil" commander cards (I try to limit myself to 1 such card per deck), but I wouldn't even consider it as being worthy of a serious banhammer discussion, let alone an actual banning. I can think of over a dozen cards that are far worse offenders then Expropriate.

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