Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Oct-18 4:02 am




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-26 4:15 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Expropriate is the definition of the type of card I'm on the fence about. I don't think it needs to be banned, and as kaldare said I don't even think it's the worst offender of currently legal stuff. That said, I think it's a miserable card and will give nothing but applause if the RC decides its time in the format is up.

It is kind of a microcosm of a lot of what people don't like to fight in magic cards. It's an extra turn spell, and those very rarely lead to more interesting games. It steals a permanent from everyone, and not in a means like Control Magic or Vedalken Shackles where there's a simple way to get them back. There's no way to interact with it outside of a counterspell or Twincast, and it inherently puts players in a position to potentially make a bad choice that ruins the game for everyone else. And it's a mythic rare from a relatively low-print, high demand set meaning that its hefty price tag is only going to go up. And finally, not that this really has anything to do with anything, but it has Leovold, in the art and flavor text which makes me hate it even more.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-26 4:26 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well said U_K! I am lucky enough to rarely see it, but would shed zero tears if it left.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-26 7:27 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
It steals a permanent from everyone, and not in a means like Control Magic or Vedalken Shackles where there's a simple way to get them back.

It's interesting that the extra bit of "take an extra turn"* makes this card into something people want to use and also complain about being used over something like Blatant Thievery. Which also steals permanents with no easy way to get them back.

Sure there's some functional changes (like BT will target the permanent you're grabbing so shroud/hexproff is still a thing, and you know what is being stolen before it resolves) but... game-play wise... it's pretty similar if you don't let the caster vote to take an extra turn off of Expropriate.

*I'm assuming the resolving of Expropriate goes like: Caster chooses to take an extra turn, everyone else doesn't let him/her take more turns.


Top
 Online Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-26 7:47 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Probably has to do with how the caster can use the stolen creatures right away. Kind of like if Blatant Thievery also have haste.

_________________
Cheethorne


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-26 2:38 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cheethorne wrote:
Probably has to do with how the caster can use the stolen creatures right away. Kind of like if Blatant Thievery also have haste.

Or more annoyingly, if Blatant Thievery gave haste AND allowed you to untap all of the mana that you used to cast it. Since Expropriate is in blue, that often translates to oodles of mana for counterspell backup and other nasty annoyances.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Screw this card.
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-30 11:01 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
I hope wizards reprints it, that'll solve the problem XD

Blue has a huge pile of 8/9 cmc cards that just sort of win the game if you have any kind of board state. Expropriate is the flashy one is new. If it get banned it is 100% replaceable and its banning will make a 0% difference on the winrates of those decks. Aminatou's Augury, Beacon of Tomorrows, Nexus of Fate all fill the same role in Narset style free-cast decks and function similarly as a big spell finisher.

My understanding is that bans typically work by removing a unique effect that dominates/ruins a game (Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic, Emrakul, the Promised end, Worldfire) and thus stopping a certain thing from happening. I think the second Expropriate is banned the same group of people will have the same experience with Time Stretch and its ilk, so the ban wouldn't accomplish anything.

Edit: I tried to find better comparisons, but it's hard to find 1-to-1 things. What Expropriate would be replaced with varies a lot deck to deck, but I don't think it fills a slot that would be hard to fill.

_________________
I'm like the Emily Litella of forums
Respect ought be given, though 'tis scarcely earned


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-31 12:54 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Evilkritter wrote:
What Expropriate would be replaced with varies a lot deck to deck, but I don't think it fills a slot that would be hard to fill.

I guess the question there is whether its replacement can truly fill its shoes or not. Extra turn spells, for example, typically don't also give you a board to win with - you have to have already generated that. You're basically making the slippery slope argument without making the slippery slope argument. The SSA typically says "There are a lot of cards similar to X, so if we ban X, we're gonna have to ban Y and Z too." The problem there is that all cards that are similar are not equal. This is why Yawgmoth's Bargain is not fair, but Necropotence is OK, for example. Likewise, if Expropriate is the worst offender, it doesn't matter that there are other cards that fill a similar role, if they don't do it as well as Expropriate. An effect doesn't need to be unique to dominate/ruin games. It just needs to do what it does too efficiently/effectively. I'm not 100% convinced that Expropriate falls into that category, but I also wouldn't be sad to see it axed.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Finishing a game is better than powerfully prolonging it
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-31 2:39 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
Evilkritter wrote:
What Expropriate would be replaced with varies a lot deck to deck, but I don't think it fills a slot that would be hard to fill.

I guess the question there is whether its replacement can truly fill its shoes or not. Extra turn spells, for example, typically don't also give you a board to win with - you have to have already generated that. You're basically making the slippery slope argument without making the slippery slope argument. The SSA typically says "There are a lot of cards similar to X, so if we ban X, we're gonna have to ban Y and Z too." The problem there is that all cards that are similar are not equal. This is why Yawgmoth's Bargain is not fair, but Necropotence is OK, for example. Likewise, if Expropriate is the worst offender, it doesn't matter that there are other cards that fill a similar role, if they don't do it as well as Expropriate. An effect doesn't need to be unique to dominate/ruin games. It just needs to do what it does too efficiently/effectively. I'm not 100% convinced that Expropriate falls into that category, but I also wouldn't be sad to see it axed.


I think we agree on the "fence sitting" status of the card. My response here is a nitpick.

I explicitly did NOT make a slippery slope argument. SSA is "if this then this and so on", my argument was "ban X, nothing changes". The feel bad from Expropriate is a huge-cost game-winning blue spell that suddenly leaps a player ahead. Blue has a lot of these effects. Expropriate is probably the best one in commander, but I do not think its removal would change the feel of the games it isn't in anymore the way removing Leovold, Emissary of Trest or Sway of the Stars did.

I would argue that Griselbrand and Yawgmoth's Bargain are both banned because they are a unique effect. Instant speed card draw for 1-life-per-card in black is too good. Necropotence is not instant speed (you have to wait until your own end step) and it has other drawbacks (can't easily use necro to set up reanimation combo).

If Expropriate gets banned it'll be for power level reasons. To me though, it seems unlikely that a 9 mana blue sorcery finisher will be too powerful for commander.

_________________
I'm like the Emily Litella of forums
Respect ought be given, though 'tis scarcely earned


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Mar-31 7:57 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Evilkritter wrote:
Blue has a lot of these effects. Expropriate is probably the best one in commander

Which is the point. Saying "people will just move on to the next best card" is true - they will do that. But that fact doesn't invalidate banning the best card. The question is simply where the line between "good" and "too good" lies. Uniqueness is not a prerequisite of banning.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-01 1:29 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Orlando, Florida
The best one is already banned: Time Walk.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: But do you believe in magic?
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-05 11:28 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
Here's a thought. Is Expropriate better than Time Walk in our format?

_________________
I'm like the Emily Litella of forums
Respect ought be given, though 'tis scarcely earned


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-05 2:49 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Evilkritter wrote:
Here's a thought. Is Expropriate better than Time Walk in our format?

That's a hard question to answer. For the most competitive decks, surely not. But I think it's reasonable to assume that most people are playing at a somewhat less competitive level, and that's where cards like Expropriate become problematic. In other words, if you're playing a turn 4-5 format, a 9-mana card isn't that relevant. If you're playing a turn 9-12 format, it definitely is. And in that turn 12 game, Time Walk is probably less impressive than expropriate.

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-05 9:43 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Jun-12 7:46 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
That seems like a good description of it.

_________________
Cheethorne


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-11 4:39 am 

Joined: 2019-Apr-11 3:54 am
Age: Hatchling
I don't think Expropriate is ban worthy, but I think it highlights a different issue.

The only time I see Expropriate played is in decks with tons of proxies, when I am playing in shops or with strangers that don't have real house rules. What end's up happening is they use a lot of incredibly fast artifact ramp to a deck that tries to cast many different power cards.

Expropriate ends up not feeling like a fair card, but that's because it's been set up with cards like Mana vault, Mana Drain, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mishra's Workshop, Copy Artifact, Mystic Remora, and/or a series of pain lands with dual lands.

The card itself isn't broken, as I feel many have pointed out, but the feeling that casting a 9 mana spell turn 3 is too easy and reliable. You end up playing with strangers so you can't play with bans additional ban cards, and you end up playing with players that have group hug triggers.

Expropriate's issue in my view is that it forces you to either lose instantly to someone playing a deck that's made to cast spells like Expropriate, or I have to use similar insanely powered cards that ramp into it. If Expropriate fails, they just try the next 8 mana+ card. The only true way to fight these decks is to yourself use the above listed power cards to be able to ramp safely into fighting it, or to play cards that slow down the game for everyone.

The balance issue in my view ends up being much more the cards that make the top of all imbalanced edh card lists and not Expropriate.

These ideas of there being a "gentlemen's implied banlist" or "make a local banlist" is just not real when you are playing with mostly strangers or by people who want to play with a competitive edge. This idea that you can elect to not play with these people instead alienates you for being a bad sport as most people have pods of friends they come play with thus severing you from a large chunk of the players. Stopping Expropriate isn't the problem, it's the insane ramp and card advantage taking an additional turn with Expropriate just attempting to be the fatal blow.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Expropriate: a new banworthy card?
AgePosted: 2019-Apr-14 8:12 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
An Expropriate on Turn 3 likely isn't very good

_________________
"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 109 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Carthain, intreped and 24 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: