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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 10:29 am 
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Yeah - so essentially you want to go back to pre-6th edition rules, but without interrupts.

I heavily oppose this idea. First off - people don't play it that way even when the rules say that's how it works (there's years of history demonstrating this.)

Secondly ... you're creating more complexity. Instead of the stack working as it does now -- you're essentially adding on a clause of "once everyone passes, then resolve stuff, only triggered abilities go on the stack (despite nobody getting priority) until the stack is empty."

Also -- you have triggered abilities going on the stack when someone wouldn't get priority (changing those rules as well). Also - how would abilities like Morph work in this case? Morph doesn't use the stack...


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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 10:48 am 
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Everytime a spell or ability on the stack resolves, players pass priority and then have the ability to put things onto the stack. I don't really see how this effects Zedruu in particular, but here's a funny example.

Player A casts a Vandalblast with Overload
Player B uses Zedruu The Greathearted to give Player A control of Howling Mine
Player C activates their Scroll Rack

Now, currently...

Player C's Scroll Rack ability resolves
Players A and B pass their priority.
Player C casts Counterspell targeting Vandalblast
Player C's Counterspell counters Vandalblast
Player B's Zedrru the Greathearted ability resoves, giving Player B control of Howling Mine

With the Shotgun clause

Player C's Scroll Rack ability resolves
Player B's Zedruu the Greathearted ability resolves, giving Player B control of Howling Mine
Player A's overloaded Vandalblast resolves, destroying each artifact he or she does not control (including Player C's Scroll Rack, but not player B's Howling Mine)

All players passing priority here, are functionally agreeing to clear the stack

Carthain wrote:
I heavily oppose this idea. First off - people don't play it that way even when the rules say that's how it works (there's years of history demonstrating this.)


I totally get this sentiment, but it isn't quite the same. At that time, The Stack itself was a super nebulous concept, that even at the highest level of play hadn't been worked out. Today, it's a solid architecture, where a change like this (much like removing Damage from the stack) would just make it behave in a more intuitive and (frankly) functional way.

Cathain wrote:
Secondly ... you're creating more complexity. Instead of the stack working as it does now -- you're essentially adding on a clause of "once everyone passes, then resolve stuff, only triggered abilities go on the stack (despite nobody getting priority) until the stack is empty."


Actually, it's simplifying how the stack works quite a bit. Triggers happen because of effects, but they would in either scenario. The difference here, is that triggers can't be responded to as the gamestate is climbing down the ladder. So, if triggers will occur, players with either discuss the triggers to account for prior to the agreement to clear the stack, or be responsible for not paying attention to these triggers (which in the current rules, is already what happens.) Under the current system, climbing down the stack gives players ample time to stall or abuse instant-speed recursion/draw/wheeling.

Carthain wrote:
Also -- you have triggered abilities going on the stack when someone wouldn't get priority (changing those rules as well). Also - how would abilities like Morph work in this case? Morph doesn't use the stack...


Morphing is a special action. So Morph doesn't actually change (similar to how Morphing interacts with Split Second.)

Triggered abilities can be accounted for by all players when the choice to pass priority and clear the stack is made. There isn't any information that can suddenly be hidden or that players can't account for before clearing the stack, unless they are simply unaware of the contents of the stack or board.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 12:00 pm 

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So I wouldnt be able to Scroll Rack or Top or instant speed draw for a response to something because I only get to pass priority once for each batch of spells/abilities? Thats a big no.

This isnt abuse, as you call it, to dig for answers instantly. Its the common and fair use of these effects. Youre going to run into a number of players who wont understand why they can play Fact or Fiction in response to something an opponent does, but then not play the instant speed answer they see in the top 5 cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 12:21 pm 
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niheloim wrote:
So I wouldnt be able to Scroll Rack or Top or instant speed draw for a response to something because I only get to pass priority once for each batch of spells/abilities? Thats a big no.

This isnt abuse, as you call it, to dig for answers instantly. Its the common and fair use of these effects. Youre going to run into a number of players who wont understand why they can play Fact or Fiction in response to something an opponent does, but then not play the instant speed answer they see in the top 5 cards.


Yes, and no. It just means that you can't wait until the last conceivable moment to do it (when it's usually incorrect to do it in the first place.) Rather, what this changes is that if a player has an answer, they have to play it from their hand in this particular scenario- meaning that the cards still function the same, but have to be used proactively as needed.

I don't expect anyone to think this is a good idea, because it's an issue akin to damage on the stack- and that wasn't a change many people were happy about. But it happened, because if it didn't, cards like Jitte would centralize the game in the way that stack-tricks do. Like how combat works, it's all about wagers, agreement via passing priority and resolution. Choices have consequences, and the more we encounter instant speed reracking and recursion, the less those consequences matter, and the more games stall.

On a lighter note, it stops players from punting Brainstorms, and that's atleast comedic value.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 3:20 pm 

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Mr Degradation wrote:
I don't expect anyone to think this is a good idea, because it's an issue akin to damage on the stack- and that wasn't a change many people were happy about. But it happened, because if it didn't, cards like Jitte would centralize the game in the way that stack-tricks do. Like how combat works, it's all about wagers, agreement via passing priority and resolution. Choices have consequences, and the more we encounter instant speed reracking and recursion, the less those consequences matter, and the more games stall.


I've found that there's often a difference between a 'good idea' and 'an idea every likes'. I think it sounds like a reasonable possibility, but it sounds like something that would most negatively impact blue. If it's not artifact related, blue and red are not colors I'm strong with, so I have to mostly go off of what other people tell me. My play group doesn't really do much with blue either.

The only big problem I have with it as it stands is triggers. My example: If someone's Darksteel Colossus gets sacrificed, it's ability triggers and goes on the stack without additional player interaction. I'm of the mind that if something gets forced onto the stack, players should be able to react to it. I feel like it's already been answered though, and I'm probably just too tired to remember it.

Honestly, I like changes that reward good plays rather then make things unnecessarily easier. I like the direction, but anything that changes how the stack works really does seem inherently confusing (or I'm just too tired to think).

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 3:55 pm 
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Drrakus wrote:
I've found that there's often a difference between a 'good idea' and 'an idea every likes'. I think it sounds like a reasonable possibility, but it sounds like something that would most negatively impact blue. If it's not artifact related, blue and red are not colors I'm strong with, so I have to mostly go off of what other people tell me. My play group doesn't really do much with blue either.

The only big problem I have with it as it stands is triggers. My example: If someone's Darksteel Colossus gets sacrificed, it's ability triggers and goes on the stack without additional player interaction. I'm of the mind that if something gets forced onto the stack, players should be able to react to it. I feel like it's already been answered though, and I'm probably just too tired to remember it.

Honestly, I like changes that reward good plays rather then make things unnecessarily easier. I like the direction, but anything that changes how the stack works really does seem inherently confusing (or I'm just too tired to think).


So, my response to the bolded text is a mixture of "eh?" and "not really". It's more or less specific blue cards, and a handful of other cards spread around the colorpie. The biggest impact of a rules change would be that the current ruleset, if you'll excuse the gruesome euphemism "gives you enough rope to hang yourself". As in, the decks and plays most impacted by this are either A. Not very good, B. Played suboptimal when this would destroy them, or C. Run exclusively counterspells. These tend to be extreme variants of "Draw Go" which use handsculpting cards reactively, with only the information about the texture of the board, and need a counterspell specifically as an answer.

In those cases, however, tools like Brainstorm and Dig Through Time can still find appropriate non-counter answers, and are often better played after these big plays have already been made by other players (counterspells and handsculpting cards want to be slowrolled as much as possible, because of the information warfare, and counters being purely reactive.) Or, the player who casts the handsculpting spell already had information about what sort of answers they were lacking and didn't use the spell at a point where they were best equipped to protect it, probe for an answer with it, or fix another problem with it (like finding a land-drop once their natural draw became dry.)

Quote:
My example: If someone's Darksteel Colossus gets sacrificed, it's ability triggers and goes on the stack without additional player interaction.


In these situations, there is no hidden information. Either a spell, or ability is sacrificng the Darksteel Colossus, and the stack is open for interaction up until all players have passed priority. You, as a player, with the card as information available to the table, know that the Collosus's trigger will occur. Thus, you have a window to stop it, if desirable, just not during the ability. Scavenging Ooze couldn't have stopped it in the current rules set anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 4:46 pm 

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it doesnt just affect blue.

it means I cant do nifty things with triggers, like responding to a Lightning Crafter champion with shenanigans, or multiple Thornbite Staff untaps. It means I cant tap my Lux Cannon for its third charge counter untap it with voltaic key and tap it again to destroy something in response to artifact removal.

It means I cant wait to see what my opponents are going to do when I have oblivion stone out and could possibly save multiples of my permanents.

It means I cant use Shattering Pulse more than once in response to discarding my hand.

It means you cant stop Demigod of Revenge from bringing if you want to counter it. If you pass on the Trigger you lose the option to counter. If you choose to counter the card goes to the yard and returns itself...

This is a bad idea.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 5:17 pm 
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niheloim wrote:
it doesnt just affect blue.

it means I cant do nifty things with triggers, like responding to a Lightning Crafter champion with shenanigans, or multiple Thornbite Staff untaps. It means I cant tap my Lux Cannon for its third charge counter untap it with voltaic key and tap it again to destroy something in response to artifact removal.

It means I cant wait to see what my opponents are going to do when I have oblivion stone out and could possibly save multiples of my permanents.

It means I cant use Shattering Pulse more than once in response to discarding my hand.

It means you cant stop Demigod of Revenge from bringing if you want to counter it. If you pass on the Trigger you lose the option to counter. If you choose to counter the card goes to the yard and returns itself...

This is a bad idea.


Wut?
Seriously.

Quote:
Lightning Crafter champion with shenanigans, or multiple Thornbite Staff untaps.

So, would you like to clarify this? Thornbite Staff and Lightning Crafter still interact the same way, it just happens at a different pace and doesn't juggle itself onto an existing stack. The only functional difference is that you can't do it ad nauseum while it's ontop of another spell or ability. Is there really a situation where it's necessary to juggle these triggers, when you could already just do this with a clear stack?

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It means I cant use Shattering Pulse more than once in response to discarding my hand.


If you weren't already popping important artifacts before they cast Wit's End, then woah no. I can't Forbid lock you for every spell on the stack. Oh the humanity! Will they not think of the buyback spells, and how terribly underpowered they are! But really, you can still cast the Shattering Pulse- and if you want to machine gun it, you can weigh the odds of your opponent having hand destruction. and time it accordingly.

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It means you cant stop Demigod of Revenge from bringing if you want to counter it. If you pass on the Trigger you lose the option to counter. If you choose to counter the card goes to the yard and returns itself...


This... has always been the case? It's a cast trigger that punishes Counterspell. Is a card working as designed and intended really a problem?

Edit: Also, "oh no, Demigod works in EDH as uncounterable creature". It isn't like uncounterable creatures are a thing prevalent in Magic for some gosh-darn reason.

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This is a bad idea.

So was stopping Steve from attacking with a Umezawa's Jitte, putting counters on it when damage hit the stack, sacrificing Steve, getting a land, and nailing an opponent's creature by removing counters from the Jitte. I'm sure Green never recovered, and now Sakura-Tribe Elder, Yavimaya Elder and Umezawa's Jitte are entirely unplayable cards because they don't do the cool thing in the same sequence.

:P For real though, I feel ya. This is a thread about rules changes, and I'm just being very honest about one that Magic has needed for a few years. While I doubt that it's on the immediate horizon, something like it is very likely in Magic's future (like damage on the stack changes,) and the community will have the same response, but more in a public meltdown of salt than a good natured bit of friendly criticism on an EDH forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 5:46 pm 

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Thornbite Staff. Three creatures die. I get three untap triggers. Assuming the stack was empty when the triggers were placed there I get to respond once to the untaps and lose the rest because we all passed priority and now the stack must clear? Thats a load of BS.

Demigod did punish counters, but the first one could be dealt with using counters. With this system its cannot be. I dont think that was the intent.

Shattering pulse... I have to wait for priority to cast it. I may have been waiting for a prime target before revealing I had it in my hand, but once someone hits my hand I have only one chance to use a buyback spell? Nonsense. You can make the issue one where I seem foolish for not using it immediately, but that doesnt change this rules change into a good one.


it is a bad idea, and no amount of appealing to damage on the stack as a precident changes that. your looking to simplify something that isnt in need of simplification. Damage on the stack only affected a very small subset of cards and so was worth making combat (which happens frequently) easier for the unexerienced. It also doesnt make sense to have something like hand-to-hand combat act like a bit of spellcraft as an ephemeral object on the stack. The current system is 99% the same as before. Yes Jitte and Sakura Tribe Elder often hamg put with Mogg Fanatic and pine over the good ole days, but the majority of cards function the same as before, or so close that the loss of combat tricks isn't as issue.

Egregious happenings on the stack, like youve intimated are making gamers heads explode and judges weep, are easily fixed with templating cards differently, and are not as wide spread. Yet the number of cards that this would change is not insignificant.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 7:01 pm 
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niheloim wrote:
Thornbite Staff. Three creatures die. I get three untap triggers. Assuming the stack was empty when the triggers were placed there I get to respond once to the untaps and lose the rest because we all passed priority and now the stack must clear? Thats a load of BS.

I mean, you get to untap with Thornbite less, but the effect is still there. The situations where this matters usually involve things remaining to poke or tap for value (assuming being throttled by the activation cost isn't an issue.

Quote:
Demigod did punish counters, but the first one could be dealt with using counters. With this system its cannot be. I dont think that was the intent.

Shattering pulse... I have to wait for priority to cast it. I may have been waiting for a prime target before revealing I had it in my hand, but once someone hits my hand I have only one chance to use a buyback spell? Nonsense.


It might be wonky, but what does this effect other than EDH, and does it necessarily make EDH a worse format? Demigod having to be countered with Dissipate and friends makes the card a tad stronger, but how often does anyone actually counter Demigod?

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You can make the issue one where I seem foolish for not using it immediately, but that doesnt change this rules change into a good one.


it is a bad idea, and no amount of appealing to damage on the stack as a precident changes that. your looking to simplify something that isnt in need of simplification. Damage on the stack only affected a very small subset of cards and so was worth making combat (which happens frequently) easier for the unexerienced. It also doesnt make sense to have something like hand-to-hand combat act like a bit of spellcraft as an ephemeral object on the stack. The current system is 99% the same as before. Yes Jitte and Sakura Tribe Elder often hamg put with Mogg Fanatic and pine over the good ole days, but the majority of cards function the same as before, or so close that the loss of combat tricks isn't as issue.

Egregious happenings on the stack, like youve intimated are making gamers heads explode and judges weep, are easily fixed with templating cards differently, and are not as wide spread. Yet the number of cards that this would change is not insignificant.



Unfortunately, I can't say that this is the first time I've mulled this over. The idea was presented to me by a player I consider far better at the game than myself, and I argued every conceivable change to my play or combos that I play- but it fundamentally turned into a pile of potential misplays on one hand, and unintuitive string combos on the other. When the discussion became something that was discussed between more than 3 people, I just sortof came to the realization that it seems like something that makes sense for the game at every level, and it'd be better to just rip the bandaid off.

Templating doesn't fix the fact that chronic triggers, instant speed handsculpting, and recursion have become staples of the game. Also, while Damage on the Stack is my go-to, it's far from the only precedent here. 8th Ed. made the drawstep no longer use the stack. 6th Ed. got rid of Batches and Interrupts. M14 changed the Legend Rule, so Clone no longer axes Geist of Saint Traft and friends. Every set, the CR in section 6 get tweaked (especially around the dreaded 613.X area.)

Magic's designers are shuffling around rules changes for years with the goal of making the game more intuitive and fun. To quote MaRo...
That Madman Who Designs Our Favorite Passtime wrote:
Three, we don't make the mechanic revolve around understanding how The Stack works. If you have to ask another player, they should be able to explain to you what is happening without having to first get you up to speed on The Stack. This, by the way, was the area where most of the designers in The Great Designer Search originally messed up.


You certainly aren't foolish for having a contrary opinion though :(

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 11:52 pm 
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If I could go back in time and replace a rule, it would be command tax. Instead of paying an additional cost when you cast your commander, you would simply pay a command tax to move your commander to your hand. It might need to be a higher number to balance it out, but I think 0 increasing by 2 each time is probably fine. In almost all cases it makes it a little easier to recast your commander, and in a few cases it makes your commander useful in more interesting ways (for example Ith, High Arcanist), and in one case (Haakon, Stromgald Scourge) it makes your commander actually playable where without it there would be no option other than Command Beacon.

The only problem is that now that Skullbriar, the Walking Grave has been printed, this change is no longer all-upside, so I can't support it.


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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 2:12 am 
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intreped wrote:
If I could go back in time and replace a rule, it would be command tax. Instead of paying an additional cost when you cast your commander, you would simply pay a command tax to move your commander to your hand. It might need to be a higher number to balance it out, but I think 0 increasing by 2 each time is probably fine. In almost all cases it makes it a little easier to recast your commander, and in a few cases it makes your commander useful in more interesting ways (for example Ith, High Arcanist), and in one case (Haakon, Stromgald Scourge) it makes your commander actually playable where without it there would be no option other than Command Beacon.

The only problem is that now that Skullbriar, the Walking Grave has been printed, this change is no longer all-upside, so I can't support it.


This seems like a very cool design space to work with. Do you think you could mock up variants of Command Beacon to fit into colored spells, or (colorless) artifacts? Would make for a cool toss in on Commander-specific cards.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 3:31 am 

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Mr Degradation wrote:
niheloim wrote:
Thornbite Staff. Three creatures die. I get three untap triggers. Assuming the stack was empty when the triggers were placed there I get to respond once to the untaps and lose the rest because we all passed priority and now the stack must clear? Thats a load of BS.

I mean, you get to untap with Thornbite less, but the effect is still there. The situations where this matters usually involve things remaining to poke or tap for value (assuming being throttled by the activation cost isn't an issue.
yeah, but its sooooo less cool.

Quote:
Quote:
Demigod did punish counters, but the first one could be dealt with using counters. With this system its cannot be. I dont think that was the intent.

Shattering pulse... I have to wait for priority to cast it. I may have been waiting for a prime target before revealing I had it in my hand, but once someone hits my hand I have only one chance to use a buyback spell? Nonsense.


It might be wonky, but what does this effect other than EDH, and does it necessarily make EDH a worse format? Demigod having to be countered with Dissipate and friends makes the card a tad stronger, but how often does anyone actually counter Demigod?
Going forward it would effect all formats, but edh the most. Demigod being effectively uncountable would be fixed in later cards with template issues.

The problem with the change is I don't see it as close to necessary. The stack is pretty simple in its standard 1v1 application and will almost always play out as "stack them up, resolve top down." So why change it?


Quote:
Templating doesn't fix the fact that chronic triggers, instant speed handsculpting, and recursion have become staples of the game.
Yes it does. You just don't design cards that do that.

Also implies that these need to be fixed. I don't see how they are bad for the game.

Quote:
Also, while Damage on the Stack is my go-to, it's far from the only precedent here. 8th Ed. made the drawstep no longer use the stack. 6th Ed. got rid of Batches and Interrupts. M14 changed the Legend Rule, so Clone no longer axes Geist of Saint Traft and friends. Every set, the CR in section 6 get tweaked (especially around the dreaded 613.X area.)
If this was truly an intuitive change I might be behind it.

But If I have an instant that lets me look at my cards then draw how is it not intuitive that I can use that to respond to what you're doing?

What has happened is blue has gotten a lot of power degrades so that players don't suffer from the feel-bads when playing against blue.

We got rid of batches (which is what you're advocating for here) because they were not intuitive.
Legends were changed to make cards more playable. the Current stack is highly playable.
613 has been a mess forever and ever, and always will be. The stack is not a mess.

I think the best rule you can point to was Mana burn. It didn't do anything, aside from a few nifty cards that cared about tapping lands or mana (braid of fire got better, Citadel of Pain got worse). I think I've mana burned... 1 time in all my years of playing magic. It didn't make games better or make me a better player... I can't say the same for the stack as is. Its always been a source of fun and improvement for me.

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I dunno... I've met a lot of magic players... ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 3:35 am 

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intreped wrote:
If I could go back in time and replace a rule, it would be command tax. Instead of paying an additional cost when you cast your commander, you would simply pay a command tax to move your commander to your hand. It might need to be a higher number to balance it out, but I think 0 increasing by 2 each time is probably fine. In almost all cases it makes it a little easier to recast your commander, and in a few cases it makes your commander useful in more interesting ways (for example Ith, High Arcanist), and in one case (Haakon, Stromgald Scourge) it makes your commander actually playable where without it there would be no option other than Command Beacon.

The only problem is that now that Skullbriar, the Walking Grave has been printed, this change is no longer all-upside, so I can't support it.
I've wanted this change for a while.

Being able to play the Myojins, Phage, Haakon would be cool. I do feel Skullbriar takes a hit, but that just means it needs to jump through hoops instead of Phage.

The option, though more complicated, is to allow casting from the Command zone by paying the tax together with mana cost, or paying tax to move to hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Rules that shaped the Format- remove one!
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 3:52 am 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
I totally get this sentiment, but it isn't quite the same. At that time, The Stack itself was a super nebulous concept, that even at the highest level of play hadn't been worked out. Today, it's a solid architecture, where a change like this (much like removing Damage from the stack) would just make it behave in a more intuitive and (frankly) functional way.

No - the stack has always been fairly well defined. Just the "batch processing" method didn't end up being played that way. If people inherently don't think it works that way, trying to set the rules to work that way is just an uphill battle. Why would you want that?

Mr Degradation wrote:
Actually, it's simplifying how the stack works quite a bit.
I wasn't talking about just the stack. :)

Triggers: Currently triggers trigger whenever, but aren't placed on the stack until someone has priority. You either have to change that to put triggers on the stack immediately (and then deal with any other strange scenario fall-out) or you have a unique situation where triggers are put onto the stack even though somebody isn't about to get priority.

Mr Degradation wrote:
Under the current system, climbing down the stack gives players ample time to stall or abuse instant-speed recursion/draw/wheeling.

Stall? I did ask about this before, and I still have no idea what you're referring. Or, for that matter, what "abuse" you are talking about.

Mr Degradation wrote:
Morphing is a special action. So Morph doesn't actually change (similar to how Morphing interacts with Split Second.)
Right... so can you do special actions as a "batch" (I'm gonna start calling it that from now on) is resolving? You kind of need to be able to - but you can't unmorph a card unless you have priority ... so... how does it work in the world of the batch-stack?


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