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 Post subject: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-14 11:12 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jun-14 11:02 pm
Age: Hatchling
I don't know about a lot of you guys, but I have gotten pretty tired of playing against some of the infinite combos that are popular. One comes to mind is the Triskelion + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion + phyrexian devourer + Necrotic Ooze. Triskelion is a instant win card that you cant stop unless someone has 1 of 2 sudden death cards. Maybe that's a card that should be considered being placed on the ban list. Because Ive played many games where someone plays mono black or B/W and they use a Triskelion combo as the main instant win combo. sometimes they can get the combo off by turn 5. Which isn't fun for anyone. Thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 6:22 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Ruric1014 wrote:
I don't know about a lot of you guys, but I have gotten pretty tired of playing against some of the infinite combos that are popular. One comes to mind is the Triskelion + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion + phyrexian devourer + Necrotic Ooze. Triskelion is a instant win card that you cant stop unless someone has 1 of 2 sudden death cards. Maybe that's a card that should be considered being placed on the ban list. Because Ive played many games where someone plays mono black or B/W and they use a Triskelion combo as the main instant win combo. sometimes they can get the combo off by turn 5. Which isn't fun for anyone. Thoughts?

While I would agree that losing by turn 5 when you don't seem to have an answer isn't fun, the question you need to ask is how often does this happen? and What can you do to combat it?

There are a lot of reasonable answers to combos. Mikaeus leaves himself open to removal while Triskelion is in the graveyard waiting for Undying to bring it back.

If Necrotic Ooze is causing you problems you can play more graveyard removal and prevent them from setting up the combo. And there are decent number split-second cards that can handle the problem:
Extirpate
Sudden Death... though a smart player would just keep the power above 4...
Angel's Grace allows you to then break the combo with other removal without fear of them killing you off completely, though its not the best solution.
Sudden Spoling
Trickbind
Wipe Away gives you the chance to respond again to the issue
Word of Seizing lets you use the same combo to kill them.

If you can't metagame against the combos, then you need to see if you can meta-metagame. Try asking the offending player to tone it down, or to stop entirely if its really ruining your day.

The last option is to simply not play with them.

As it turns out, none of the cards you've mentioned are ruining the format.They exist, and are sometimes a pain, but they aren't dictating the meta. That means they will not (and should not) be banned. You will need to find other ways of dealing with the issue unfortunately.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 6:29 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Hello and welcome to the forums!

To start, combo pieces are rarely banned. This format is pretty heavily based on the idea of casual fun games and an implied social contract between players. The problem with Trisk isn't the card but the player. If Triskelion were banned tomorrow all the players abusing him would switch to Kiki Jiki or Hermit Druid or some other stupid combo deck. And meanwhile all the people running Trisk in a deck like Ezuri, Claw of Progress or Chorus of the Conclave lose out on a fun card.


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 6:57 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-14 11:02 pm
Age: Hatchling
If the argument is going to turn to how you can curb a card that is used to instant win then there are also ways to curb griselbrand from drawing tons of cards. Pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, Linvala. There is always a few ways around things. The issue is whether the card is being abused to take away from the essence of the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 7:37 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ruric1014 wrote:
If the argument is going to turn to how you can curb a card that is used to instant win then there are also ways to curb griselbrand from drawing tons of cards. Pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, Linvala. There is always a few ways around things. The issue is whether the card is being abused to take away from the essence of the game.


Banning Triskelion does nothing. You'd be back in a week because the people who wanted to insta-win had moved onto the next card, which is no worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 8:05 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Ruric1014 wrote:
If the argument is going to turn to how you can curb a card that is used to instant win then there are also ways to curb griselbrand from drawing tons of cards. Pithing needle, phyrexian revoker, Linvala. There is always a few ways around things. The issue is whether the card is being abused to take away from the essence of the game.

ok. the issue is how the card is being used, but on a format wide scale.

None of the cards mention are taking away from the essence of the game, as you put it. They might be wrecking things locally for you, but that means you need a local fix.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 8:15 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
As always, my position on these sort of situations are "tech it out, or talk it out". There is a massive laundry list of cards that disrupt Triskelion and friends combos. These decks are typically build on the back of multiple combos that use the same pieces, and a chat with your playgroup about how the cards work, and the best ways to stop them will be much more beneficial to your experience than a forum post about how irritating the combos are.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-15 1:23 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jan-15 11:59 am
Age: Hatchling
Someone running problematic artifacts? Play Thada Adel, Acquisitor and _remove_ the problems and steal their Sol Rings. :)
You'd be surprised how clear a message it can send when each game you get the _exact same card_ first and leave it in exile.


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 2:28 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Ruric1014 wrote:
I don't know about a lot of you guys, but I have gotten pretty tired of playing against some of the infinite combos that are popular. One comes to mind is the Triskelion + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion + phyrexian devourer + Necrotic Ooze. Triskelion is a instant win card that you cant stop unless someone has 1 of 2 sudden death cards. Maybe that's a card that should be considered being placed on the ban list. Because Ive played many games where someone plays mono black or B/W and they use a Triskelion combo as the main instant win combo. sometimes they can get the combo off by turn 5. Which isn't fun for anyone. Thoughts?


my thought is you're posting on the wrong forums, I've been beating my head against this brick wall for three years, no one here is going to provide any useful discussion other than to shut you down and hivemind you to death.

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We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 3:19 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Gath Immortal wrote:
Ruric1014 wrote:
I don't know about a lot of you guys, but I have gotten pretty tired of playing against some of the infinite combos that are popular. One comes to mind is the Triskelion + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion + phyrexian devourer + Necrotic Ooze. Triskelion is a instant win card that you cant stop unless someone has 1 of 2 sudden death cards. Maybe that's a card that should be considered being placed on the ban list. Because Ive played many games where someone plays mono black or B/W and they use a Triskelion combo as the main instant win combo. sometimes they can get the combo off by turn 5. Which isn't fun for anyone. Thoughts?


my thought is you're posting on the wrong forums, I've been beating my head against this brick wall for three years, no one here is going to provide any useful discussion other than to shut you down and hivemind you to death.

I dunno if this characterization is right... aren't the above posts useful discussion?

And what would be a better place to get a card in commander banned? This is the right place.

But yeah... not a lot of commiseration or likemindedness here.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 5:58 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ruric1014 wrote:
I don't know about a lot of you guys, but I have gotten pretty tired of playing against some of the infinite combos that are popular. One comes to mind is the Triskelion + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed and Triskelion + phyrexian devourer + Necrotic Ooze. Triskelion is a instant win card that you cant stop unless someone has 1 of 2 sudden death cards. Maybe that's a card that should be considered being placed on the ban list. Because Ive played many games where someone plays mono black or B/W and they use a Triskelion combo as the main instant win combo. sometimes they can get the combo off by turn 5. Which isn't fun for anyone. Thoughts?

As others have said, this is a combo (like many to be honest) that can be stopped by many removal spells, and many playable proactive cards that just sit. Triskelion can be exiled/shuffled/bounced when it moves to kill itself, exiled from grave in response to undying trigger, Mikaeus can be removed in response to robot targeting itself for destruction or for undying trigger.

Necrotic Ooze + Devourer + robot is even more cards to be interacted with.

Monoblack Mikaeus+Triskelion combo is, imo, probably the absolute worst because you lack tutors that cheat them into play, counter magic or protection spells (except for like a couple black instant speed "regen target" type deals).

What kinds of decks and power levels do you have in your meta? How much removal/interaction do you play? How much are you willing to put in your deck? If this person is the only combo player and plays absolutely cutthroat you may need to stop playing that person.

As someone who kills people with Triskelion every week, i can tell you that it's far from the best combo and is quite beatable. I should honestly play something a little bit different. I'm the only player in my meta who plays Mikaeus/Trisk even though many decks have the colors to do so.

Gath Immortal wrote:
my thought is you're posting on the wrong forums, I've been beating my head against this brick wall for three years, no one here is going to provide any useful discussion other than to shut you down and hivemind you to death.

What exactly do you want?
Are you sure you can't reconsider that maybe you are in a minority and have a problem playing against cards that most people do not have a problem combating? My anecdotal experience has generally been contrary to yours, for example. Nothing you say is prevalent in your meta is prevalent or a problem in mine, and others have shared that sentiment as well.
People here can only state their opinion and tips on combating what is legal while it is, and asking other users if they think it should be banned is (probably, i think) not even at all how you would get a card banned.
As much as you seem to dislike others here (or their attitudes), i think your attitude when pushing your opinions as obvious fact has made you pretty unlikable and that surely makes it even harder to start a favorable dialogue now.


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-16 6:11 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
my thought is you're posting on the wrong forums, I've been beating my head against this brick wall for three years, no one here is going to provide any useful discussion other than to shut you down and hivemind you to death.

I'd like to point out that locally, there was another player who wanted a card banned (Spell Burst.) A bunch of us told him it really isn't that bad (annoying, certainly) but not the lock he was thinking it was.

We went through him on strategies to combat it. Turned out he didn't realize that when you pay the buyback that it still sat on the stack until it resolved (and wasn't in hand to be used on whatever was cast in response.) He went away quite happy and we never heard him complain about it again.

So - instead of banning a card locally that someone (I think it was 2-3 people actually) had a problem with, we gave him other options and helped him on how to fight against it. And that solved the issue.

There's nothing wrong with trying to provide alternatives to banning. Bans should be a last resort ("Look, we tried, nobody can play nicely with this toy, so nobody gets to use it.") It also is usually done when the card is a consistent problem across multiple playgroups. If there's only a few playgroups who have problems with it - then perhaps exploring other options is the correct move. So what's wrong with that?


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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-19 4:36 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Your premise is that Mike+Trike is an over powered combo. I believe this is a false premise because the combo can be interacted with in any colour for very little mana. Off the top of my head here are the <=1 mana answers to Mike+Trike:
Swords to plowshares
Path to Exile
Extirpate
Surgical Extraction
Tormods Crypt
Relic of Progenitus
Graffdiggers Cage
Stifle

There are a bunch more I dont know the name for, like the phyrexian green spell that puts cards from the yard onto the library, and the list explodes exponentially as you increase the mana allowance. You also have permanent answers like leyline of the void, rest in piece ,wheel of sun and moon and solemnity, or counter spells.

The Mike+Trike loop can be interacted with by either killing Mike when triskellion dies the first time (trike goes to the yard and triggers persist, you can respond before it comes back.) or you can exile the triskellion, again while it is in the graveyard.

In addition, if combo is a major issue in your meta, get yourself a few copies of Jesters Cap or the 1BB spell that exiles a card from a players library face down. You know what's hilarious, watching the moment someone tutoring their deck realizes the important combo piece they were looking for isn't there.

Gath Immortal wrote:
my thought is you're posting on the wrong forums, I've been beating my head against this brick wall for three years, no one here is going to provide any useful discussion other than to shut you down and hivemind you to death.

Here's a thought for you, if a wide range of people from many different back grounds in places around the world agree on something, and you disagree with them, maybe you're wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-19 7:55 pm 
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Joined: 2008-Dec-26 7:50 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Amsterdam, Holland
The first time we saw the combo we just regenerated the Triskelion. The combo player was not amused.

He put the cards on the board and said he won. I told him to show us the combo. He proceeds to deal just 1 damage to the Trike, I ask if he's sure, he says yes. I point out his failure, he says he should be allowed to take it back, "that's what I meant to do!". We let him. He goes into full thinking mode. He says what he wants to do and I take it as his final decission and point out something on my side of the board that prevents his win, "no, no, I'm still thinking!". I ask the 3rd player to please not pack up. 5 minutes later, he starts to take actions again, I ask if he's REALLY SURE? He starts thinking again. Finally, yes, he's sure. He proceeds to deal a damage to one of our creatures and then stacks 2 damage on the Trike, I ask the 3rd player to please regenerate the Trike with his Yavimaya Hollow. The combo player was absolutely pissed off, but he was asking for it playing a combo not even knowing how it works and making us wait for as long as he did.

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 Post subject: Re: Banlist Suggestions for over powered combo cards
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-20 2:06 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
pi wrote:
The first time we saw the combo we just regenerated the Triskelion. The combo player was not amused.

Ahahahahaha. I love it! :lol:


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