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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jun-27 1:36 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Quote:
we are talking about black right? If Gris doesn't find the specific card he's looking for he's almost certainly going to find a way to search for it anyway.


At which point it will be too late... Instant speed to hand for free vs sorcery speed or top of library. (I understand he can put to top and then draw again but that severely narrows the options and implies additional activations)

People need to stop comparing this to garbage like Diabolic Revelation. Speed and cost change everything.

Griselbrand is absolutely broken in a combo/storm build. Razakoth is equally broken in a combo/control build.

If you try to combo yourself, he can find something to stop you in response. If you try to remove him or his board state after he's in play, he can find something to stop you in response. If you have nothing to do, he can find something to solidify a win.


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 5:49 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Aug-06 1:27 pm
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He costs a ton of mana and you need creature fodder to use him.

Almost every other tutor is better than Razaketh, the Foulblooded.


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 6:40 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
MatthewB wrote:
He costs a ton of mana and you need creature fodder to use him.

Almost every other tutor is better than Razaketh, the Foulblooded.


I wasn't planning on ever actually paying 8 mana to cast him. Get him in the yard, reanimate him, and sacrifice an apostle or something.

Seriously, Is any color better suited to cheat him into play and activate his ability than black?


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-12 9:15 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Nigerian Prince wrote:
I wasn't planning on ever actually paying 8 mana to cast him. Get him in the yard, reanimate him, and sacrifice an apostle or something.

Seriously, Is any color better suited to cheat him into play and activate his ability than black?
Well, no, but then you need something to get him into the graveyard, something to get him out of the graveyard and a dude to sacrifice to tutor. That's 3 or 4 other cards, in which case he's clearly no worse than any other powerful reanimation target

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-13 6:21 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Instant speed to hand for free vs sorcery speed or top of library.
What kind of deck are you building where you need instant-speed answers and can't get them in 21/28/35 cards?

Epsilon wrote:
People need to stop comparing this to garbage like Diabolic Revelation. Speed and cost change everything.
You either didn't read what people actually said or are intentionally being disingenuous. For the same mana cost as Raza, Revelation nets you 3 cards and has zero extra hoops to jump through, making Revelation both speedier and less costly. The only exception is if you manage to cheat Raza out, the vast majority of EDH players don't play in a metagame where such a thing is consistently possible, and those who do often target better creatures. Ones who win on the spot instead of searching for other cards that could do it.

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Griselbrand is absolutely broken in a combo/storm build. Razakoth is equally broken in a combo/control build.
Griselbrand is far more broken in a control build. He requires less resources to make useful (practically zero), and the card volume he provides is far more useful for a control build. And if you're going to take the control route to a Stax-like level generals like Sidisi and Maralen blow them both out of the water.

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If you try to combo yourself, he can find something to stop you in response. If you try to remove him or his board state after he's in play, he can find something to stop you in response. If you have nothing to do, he can find something to solidify a win.
He can do all those things, but not without a pretty heavy cost. If you make him your general, you can't cheat him out, are forced to devote valuable card slots to cards that offset his sac cost, and are stuck in the relatively weak control color of mono-black. If he's part of the 99, you don't have consistent access to him and you have access to other cards that are better to tutor/cheat out.

It seems as though every argument you've made implies that he'll be cheated out every single time, which you've yet to demonstrate.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-14 11:22 am 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Epsilon wrote:
Instant speed to hand for free vs sorcery speed or top of library.
What kind of deck are you building where you need instant-speed answers and can't get them in 21/28/35 cards?

Epsilon wrote:
People need to stop comparing this to garbage like Diabolic Revelation. Speed and cost change everything.
You either didn't read what people actually said or are intentionally being disingenuous. For the same mana cost as Raza, Revelation nets you 3 cards and has zero extra hoops to jump through, making Revelation both speedier and less costly. The only exception is if you manage to cheat Raza out, the vast majority of EDH players don't play in a metagame where such a thing is consistently possible, and those who do often target better creatures. Ones who win on the spot instead of searching for other cards that could do it.

Quote:
Griselbrand is absolutely broken in a combo/storm build. Razakoth is equally broken in a combo/control build.
Griselbrand is far more broken in a control build. He requires less resources to make useful (practically zero), and the card volume he provides is far more useful for a control build. And if you're going to take the control route to a Stax-like level generals like Sidisi and Maralen blow them both out of the water.

Quote:
If you try to combo yourself, he can find something to stop you in response. If you try to remove him or his board state after he's in play, he can find something to stop you in response. If you have nothing to do, he can find something to solidify a win.
He can do all those things, but not without a pretty heavy cost. If you make him your general, you can't cheat him out, are forced to devote valuable card slots to cards that offset his sac cost, and are stuck in the relatively weak control color of mono-black. If he's part of the 99, you don't have consistent access to him and you have access to other cards that are better to tutor/cheat out.

It seems as though every argument you've made implies that he'll be cheated out every single time, which you've yet to demonstrate.

35 cards is less than half your deck (barely more than a third but adjusting since you will have drawn several before playing it...). Are you likely to get an answer? Yes. Are you guaranteed to get the exact answer for the exact situation? No, not even a 50% chance. Griselbrand is hands down better in formats where he's legal because those formats are 60 card 4 of formats. You're all but guaranteed to get exactly what you need to defend/win by drawing 14+ cards. That is NOT the case in a singleton format.

You can Revelation for x=3 on turn 2-3 (I added a turn to what you can do with Griselbrand since it requires a creature)? I'd like to see that list but there are tons of lists showing how to do it with Griselbrand. You're looking at turn 6+ to do that with Revelation. Even later if you want mana untapped for defense. Razaketh isn't guaranteed to come down that early but he's definitely not likely to be hard cast in most games. You are STILL overlooking the speed relevance. Go ahead and waste all your mana to pull a combo you can't use til next turn... You then have to survive a turn without someone playing discard, killing you outright, or sand bagging a counterspell.

The cards you are "forced" to play to enable Griselbrand offset the cards you are "forced" to play to enable Razaketh. Even if you feel they don't, you need less "payoff" cards in Razaketh since you can just instantly grab them rather than needing to include redundancy of effects and slow tutors in Gris.

Where is this heavy cost? One creature? Tokens are a dime a dozen. Sacrificing your stuff? Black LOVES to sacrifice things. Razaketh falls into the same boat that Griselbrand did in that he's stronger as part of the 99. They're perfectly viable in the command zone but far more broken in the deck. How often does Griselbrand get hard cast? Why do I need to prove that Razaketh won't generally be hard cast when Griselbrand is already proof of concept? Are you denying that there's an abundance of recursion in the format? Why is there any doubt that an 8 mana creature will be cheated out more often than actually cast? Sure, lets assume players are idiots and can't build decks to capitalize on a card they're building around. Give me a break. This will be hard cast as a last resort, we don't need to theory craft around a worst case especially when it really doesn't change anything about the power of the card. You still will have the game on lock when it hits play excluding some very niche responses.


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-15 12:36 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
Griselbrand is hands down better in formats where he's legal because those formats are 60 card 4 of formats. You're all but guaranteed to get exactly what you need to defend/win by drawing 14+ cards. That is NOT the case in a singleton format.
Not being able to run 4 of every card doesn't mean you can't build for redundancy. Sure it's difficult to achieve the 1/15 or 1/8 probability that other formats have, but 80% of the time Cancel is just as good as Counterspell.

Quote:
You can Revelation for x=3 on turn 2-3 (I added a turn to what you can do with Griselbrand since it requires a creature)? I'd like to see that list but there are tons of lists showing how to do it with Griselbrand. You're looking at turn 6+ to do that with Revelation.
I'm going to need a source on that last part. When I actually build the deck to do so I've pretty consistently been able to hardcast stuff at 8 mana on T4, without using any cheating effects.

Razaketh isn't guaranteed to come down that early but he's definitely not likely to be hard cast in most games.

Quote:
The cards you are "forced" to play to enable Griselbrand offset the cards you are "forced" to play to enable Razaketh.
What cards are you forced to play to enable Griselbrand? Unless people start playing a bunch of Lightning Bolt effects the life cost is negligible and requires zero card support, not to mention Griselbrand himself provides a replenish of that resource. The closest example I can think of to what you might be talking about is Skirge Familiar, which is probably more than viable with Raza anyway.

Quote:
How often does Griselbrand get hard cast?

Never, because the only formats where he's legal are the ones where 1 out of every 8 cards in the deck can cheat him out.

Quote:
Why do I need to prove that Razaketh won't generally be hard cast when Griselbrand is already proof of concept?
Griselbrand is? A large part of the reason he was banned is that he was overpowered even when hardcast. And while we're at it, it wasn't exactly common for people to cheat Yawgmoth's Bargain out either and it still saw tons of play and got banned.

Quote:
Why is there any doubt that an 8 mana creature will be cheated out more often than actually cast?
Because this is the format that prides itself on big mana battlecruiser type decks.

Quote:
Sure, lets assume players are idiots and can't build decks to capitalize on a card they're building around.
You've got the causation backwards. It's not too good of a strategy to specifically try to build a deck to cheat Raza out as early as possible, but it is true that he's probably a decent addition to decks that already can do that. The thing is, he's far from the only one in that category and maybe not even the worst offender. Stuff like the bigger praetors, Eldrazi, or Iona can effectively shut opponents out if not answered immediately, while stuff like Craterhoof
or Angel of Glory's Rise can win the game on the spot. And if we're talking about building a deck around a member of the 99, there are far more dangerous cards to pick from than a creature that needs to be cheated out, needs other creatures in play to do stuff, and only searches for other winning cards.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-15 3:54 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Why is this argument still going on? The card is playable now. Go experience for yourself what hot trash it is when you aren't already winning by a mile.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-15 2:49 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
It's okay in Kaalia... not amazing, but pretty good. I can't imagine a deck where this is strictly better than some other tutor. If you're building around it and trying to make it broken, well that's not really what the banlist is for, right? Griselbrand had the unfortunate effect of slotting into whatever deck you could stick it in and immediately being game-ending crazy whether you cheated it into play or cast it. This guy... is a tutor that requires you to jump through hoops to use its effect and isn't immediately better than other tutors at the same mana cost. Diabolic Revelation is more efficient out of the gate for the same price, and that card doesn't even see a ton of play. At the end of the day, this is just a big, dumb Demon with a kind of cool effect that is probably not as good as almost any other tutor if you're trying to do broken stuff.

The repeatable nature is pretty cool, and I can see some obnoxious control builds using it to chain counterspells or whatever other answers, but they're costing themselves life and creatures. To be honest, that seems less annoying than something like Solemnity + Decree of Silence, and that's not even very good.

As for the combo aspect, there's just no way it even compares to Survival of the Fittest, and that card hasn't been a problem in ages.

Not even remotely bannable, IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-18 10:46 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
@Epsilon: Describe the exact manner in which, best case scenario, razaketh can be put into play and be online to tutor.

How much mana do you need? How many cards? What turn?

edit: changed "cast" to "put into play" before my wording becomes the point of contention.

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Last edited by specter404 on 2017-Jul-18 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-18 12:40 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
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specter404 wrote:
@Epsilon: Describe the exact manner in which, best case scenario, razaketh can be cast and be online to tutor.

How much mana do you need? How many cards? What turn?

Here's the best scenario I can come up with:

Swamp, random land, Mox Diamond, Ornithopter, Lion's Eye Diamond, Reanimate, and Entomb in your opening hand.

T1 play the swamp and diamond, Entomb for Raza and reanimate him, play the Thopter. Play the Lion diamond and sac it, then sac the thopter for Bitterblossom and cast it.

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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-18 1:39 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
UK just listed a turn 1 activation although there are probably half a dozen different options to have the same effect between rituals, other moxen (opal would be active and not card disadvantage in the same start), other cheap/free creatures, etc... More realistically turn 3+ since you'd want a recurring 1 drop or bitterblossom type effects in play.

You don't really NEED any mana to protect it since you can tutor out Not of this World or a Pact/force/misdirect for free counter magic but there's no harm in waiting til you have 1-2 mana open for less emergency based responses. A control deck doesn't need to rush.

Keep in mind the RC isn't worried about the competitive side of the format so while an entomb/reanimate turn 1 is possible, you're more likely to see a buried alive/victimize or other more powerful but slower effects. Sure, someone can grab a mike/trike and such for a better cheesy win but someone can use removal vs that while it's going to be much harder to remove Razaketh.


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 Post subject: Re: [HOU] Razaketh, the Foul Blooded
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-18 4:20 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
UK listed a way to turn razaketh into worse rune-scarred demon, establishing an engine which does not get to tutor again that turn and provides one free grim tutor each turn it's not interacted with. Put ol rune-scarred under a mimic vat or next to a conjurers closet for similar effect.

The issue I have with your line of argument is it always involves a list of other cards working in tandem in order to make this work. From the discussion so far you need as a minimum:
1. An entomb effect
2. A reanimate effect
3. a repeatable source of creatures

And then you will also need ways to protect those pieces and ways to profit from the engine in the deck to be tutored up. None of these things are in short supply granted, but the number of hurdles you need to clear, even if they are small ones, becomes significant.

You claim razaketh is easier to protect than mike/trike, presumably because in the buried alive/victimize strategy you get to search for one counterspell, but given the same cards mike/trike wins immediately while razaketh sits around waiting for more creatures to be fed to him. It's buried alive, victimize, win vs buried, victim, do something else... win. If your opponents band together to kill raz, which they will, your one answer, no matter how perfectly tutored it is, will not be able to compete against 3 other players combined responses

All of this also assumes no counter play, why is it that someone can answer a mike/trike at instant speed on the turn you go off (which if you are clever you have chosen a time when the table is most vulnerable), but they cant untap and play supreme verdict? Where are dosan, defence grid or grand abolisher in all of this.

When this is put up against Griselbrand, which, once in play is an un-count(stifle)erable draw 20, big Raz just does not measure up.

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