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Command Zone Finagling
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18666
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Author:  Evilkritter [ 2017-Jul-15 7:28 am ]
Post subject:  Command Zone Finagling

Generally speaking I like how Commander follows the regular MtG rule set in basically every scenario. The Commander rules historically cracked a little at the edges when they had to go beyond the regular rules. At this point the last example that bothers me is the namesake "Command Zone".

With the Commander-go-home rule being a replacement effect Commanders don't die. The existing rule phrasing reads simply and elegantly, but its application has a few unintuitive effects. If Tuktuk the Explorer or Child of Alara is your commander, returning them to the Command Zone causes them to do nothing.

What if the rule read "Whenever a Commander is put into a zone besides the Battlefield or Command Zone it's owner may return it to the Command Zone." Relevant Zone-change triggers would trigger normally and the rule would function almost identically. Are there any problems or notable exploits with this phrasing?

Author:  SadisticMystic [ 2017-Jul-15 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

That would allow you to force another player to lose access to their commander with something as simple as Stifle or Time Stop. It would also create a trigger every single time you cast your commander that serves almost no meaningful purpose (unless you just want to throw Maelstrom Wanderer or Prossh into the fray multiple times for value?)

Author:  niheloim [ 2017-Jul-15 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

Its not a bad rules change. Yes you can stifle the trigger, but I don't think those types of plays would be common, and they're relatively easy to work around with things like Relic of Progenitus.

I don't think I would change the rule, but I wouldn't cry foul, assuming we go with the more explicit wording that doesn't invoke a possible return to the command zone when a commander is placed on the stack.

Author:  Thor_Naadoh [ 2017-Jul-15 3:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

The afforementioned Relic of Problemitus does also solve your "Commanders don't die" issue elegantly.
Last time I checked, the replacement effect was not mandatory.
You may CHOOSE to let Child, Tuktuk, or in my case, Kokusho die and then attempt to "Exile" them from the graveyard (Disentomb, shuffle back or Zombify will do the trick, too.)

Build your deck accordingly - you don't leave Meren without any sacrifice or mass destruction either, do you?

Author:  Carthain [ 2017-Jul-15 4:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

I checked recently -- and there are 10 commanders that would 'benefit' from this change.

And as noted, it is optional. That it is optional means, for me, it's more interesting when those commanders are run because it's an actual choice for them to make, instead of it being closer to "this is how you do it" regardless of situation.

I think it's much better where it is. I'd be more interested in a rules change that would allow Phage & Haakon to be more viable commanders.

Author:  Epsilon [ 2017-Jul-16 4:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

Carthain wrote:
I think it's much better where it is. I'd be more interested in a rules change that would allow Phage & Haakon to be more viable commanders.


Phage is perfectly viable. Haakon is less so but there aren't many mono black knights to make him worth running in the command zone. He's amazing in the 99 though.

Author:  Carthain [ 2017-Jul-16 9:22 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

Epsilon wrote:
Carthain wrote:
I think it's much better where it is. I'd be more interested in a rules change that would allow Phage & Haakon to be more viable commanders.


Phage is perfectly viable. Haakon is less so but there aren't many mono black knights to make him worth running in the command zone. He's amazing in the 99 though.

Doesn't change my stance that I'd rather work on rules to make them more viable as commanders than this current route. :)

Author:  niheloim [ 2017-Jul-17 12:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

Epsilon wrote:
Carthain wrote:
I think it's much better where it is. I'd be more interested in a rules change that would allow Phage & Haakon to be more viable commanders.


Phage is perfectly viable. Haakon is less so but there aren't many mono black knights to make him worth running in the command zone. He's amazing in the 99 though.

I wouldnt say Phage is perfectly viable. She's legal. You can cast her. But those are some hoops to jump through... flaming hoops of death.

Author:  Inkeyes22 [ 2017-Jul-17 1:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

If we are making convoluted rules to help random commanders... I have one that I would like to see work as desired!

Author:  niheloim [ 2017-Jul-17 1:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

Inkeyes22 wrote:
If we are making convoluted rules to help random commanders... I have one that I would like to see work as desired!

Lay it on us, which one?

Author:  Epsilon [ 2017-Jul-17 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

niheloim wrote:
I wouldnt say Phage is perfectly viable. She's legal. You can cast her. But those are some hoops to jump through... flaming hoops of death.


There's nothing wrong with a downside to a commander. It makes them more interesting to build around. The payoff for jumping through said hoops is a one shot regardless of life total which is entirely worth the effort. Making her "more viable" would just lead to her getting banned since that would be broken as hell if she were castable without hoops.

I had a Phage deck for a while and it's not hard to get her into play and stupidly simple to make her unblockable. I never lost to her trigger (I'm sure I would if I kept playing the deck) but was able to make plenty of others lose to it. <3 Endless Whispers

Author:  Inkeyes22 [ 2017-Jul-17 6:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

niheloim wrote:
Inkeyes22 wrote:
If we are making convoluted rules to help random commanders... I have one that I would like to see work as desired!

Lay it on us, which one?


Ink-eyes of course!

Author:  niheloim [ 2017-Jul-18 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

Epsilon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
I wouldnt say Phage is perfectly viable. She's legal. You can cast her. But those are some hoops to jump through... flaming hoops of death.


There's nothing wrong with a downside to a commander. It makes them more interesting to build around. The payoff for jumping through said hoops is a one shot regardless of life total which is entirely worth the effort. Making her "more viable" would just lead to her getting banned since that would be broken as hell if she were castable without hoops.

I had a Phage deck for a while and it's not hard to get her into play and stupidly simple to make her unblockable. I never lost to her trigger (I'm sure I would if I kept playing the deck) but was able to make plenty of others lose to it. <3 Endless Whispers

with so few means to not lose, and so many of them being artifacts, Phage is too easy to metagame against
Seems like a fun every once in a while But there is no way I would allow that sort of deck to be played without packing a Shatterering Pulse or two for those torpor orbs and platinum angels.

As a Tresserhorn player I do enjoy downsides. I've thought about Phage a number of times, but its only recently that I think there's room for her.

Author:  Epsilon [ 2017-Jul-18 3:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

niheloim wrote:
with so few means to not lose, and so many of them being artifacts, Phage is too easy to metagame against
Seems like a fun every once in a while But there is no way I would allow that sort of deck to be played without packing a Shatterering Pulse or two for those torpor orbs and platinum angels.


Honestly, name a general that's not "too easy to metagame". If your goal is to stop one specific general, it's very easily done regardless of who it is.

That said, There are several "counterspells" in black that get her into the yard to permanently remove the risk of death by just pulling her back to your hand as well as Command Beacon. There are around 10 or so ways to not lose to the trigger which is more than enough to see one reliably by the time you get to enough mana to cast her. That's before you include the surplus of black tutors that will find one. The best option is probably Sundial since it protects you from people attempting removal in response like you mentioned.

Author:  niheloim [ 2017-Jul-19 9:55 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Command Zone Finagling

Well, when that metagaming means you lose the game outright its a bit different than other situations where a commander or deck is getting shut down.

But the real reason that I've never built Phage before was our pool of commanders was a small, and the metagaming would have been too conveniently included. Now that I have more decks and my current group has a few I think I could manage to have Phage on hand. Being able to switch between decks to keep everyone guessing is awesome.

So quick question... Is there an effective way to make spells I cast green? I would love a chance to play Deathgrip and counter phage. Otherwise its Thrull Wizard, Withering Boon for counters (I'm not springing for a Nether Void). Then its Torpor Orb, Sundial of the Infinite, Platinum Angel, and Crucible of Worlds to reuse Command Beacon. Other than that I can't think of anything to enable her.

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