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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-19 11:33 am 

Joined: 2014-May-23 10:08 am
Age: Wyvern
Here's a simple rules tweak that would allow you to play some affected commanders:

Players no longer cast commanders from their command zone. Any player, on their turn, may pay their commander tax and move their commander from the command zone to their hand. Do this only when you could cast a sorcery.

Any takers?


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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-19 11:44 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Generals with flash (Vendilion Clique, Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir) or those that tend to synergize with flash effects (Omnath, Locus of Mana, Kruphix, God of Horizons, any general with a good ETB effect) are nerfed pretty badly by this change. Tasigur, the Golden Fang's delve also isn't too fond of this.

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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-19 1:51 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
I wouldnt say Phage is perfectly viable. She's legal. You can cast her. But those are some hoops to jump through... flaming hoops of death.


There's nothing wrong with a downside to a commander. It makes them more interesting to build around. The payoff for jumping through said hoops is a one shot regardless of life total which is entirely worth the effort. Making her "more viable" would just lead to her getting banned since that would be broken as hell if she were castable without hoops.

7 mana chump-blockable is the downside.


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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-19 3:32 pm 
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Location: Oakland, CA
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Tasigur, the Golden Fang's delve also isn't too fond of this.

Why not? I'm not seeing the interaction.
onedayweek wrote:
Players no longer cast commanders from their command zone. Any player, on their turn, may pay their commander tax and move their commander from the command zone to their hand.
This has come up many times in the past, and a long time ago I thought it was the perfect implementation to allow Ink-Eyes and Ith and Haakon and Myojin to all be played the way I want to be able to play them. I still think it's the best way to do it, but ever since Skullbriar, the Walking Grave was printed this rule change has ceased to be all-upside, so I'm no longer in favor of it as an official rule. I still will be happy to make a house rule of it for anyone who wants to play with one of those (unless it's Myojin of Night's Reach or Myojin of Infinite Rage, because that player is probably a jerk).


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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-19 4:09 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
You can delve for the commander tax cost. If you have a special action which states you pay the tax to move the card into your hand then you don't get to reduce the cost of the tax using delve, because delve only applies when the spell is cast.

Basically you enable some mechanics whilst disabling others. Allowing both might be a good option.

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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-20 1:29 am 
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specter404 wrote:
You can delve for the commander tax cost.

Of course! I suspected it was staring me in the face but I just couldn't see it for some reason.
specter404 wrote:
Basically you enable some mechanics whilst disabling others. Allowing both might be a good option.

Yeah, as I said, I think it's a good option if you're in house rules, but I don't think it would make sense for the official rules to allow both.


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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-20 11:58 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
The simplest fix for casting would be to allow players to move to hand as a sorcery by paying tax in addition to the normal casting from the command zone. Fixes Phage, Haakon, Myojins...

This would allow flash and delve and other cost reductions (like my fav with Karador) to work, as well as keeping commanders somewhat available even after being killed off a few times. The ability to split the cost over two turns would still be a limiting factor but one that could still be overcome in plenty of instances. Though that would allow discard strategies pretty hard. Anything that has a simple cost of Discard a card, or Cadaverous Bloom might have to be banned without additional rules changes.

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 Post subject: A refinement of intent.
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-20 4:47 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
I see now that posting a commander-ability was a mistake. My intention/desire behind the rule had nothing to do with Commander playability. In fact, I think if my suggested rule were implemented it would have ZERO effect on what commanders could be played.

My sole concern was simplifying boardstate interactions and reducing the format specific complexity of the Commander card. Here are some clearer examples of "format quirks" I find irritating.

#"I cast Fruit of the First Tree on your Prossh, Skyraider of Kher, then I cast Damnation, wiping your board of kobolds and gaining me-"
#"Absolutely nothing because Prossh doesn't die, it goes to the Command zone."

#"I attack with my 11/11 Kalemne, Disciple of Iroas."
#"I cast Doom Blade."
#"Take 7 from my Vicious Shadows and another 11 from Stalking Vengeance."
#"Are you putting her in the graveyard?"
#"Oh, uhhhh-"

#"Fight your Kambal, Consul of Allocation with my Gruul Ragebeast."
#"I don't know why you bothered, I have Athreos, God of Passage."
#"Well, are you putting Kambal in the Command zone, or letting him die?"
#"Wait, I have to decide first?"
#"Yep."
#"...I guess he's in the Command zone?"

#"I cast Tana, the Bloodsower."
#"Terror it."
#"I've got fifty mana and one card in hand, Tana, The Bloodsower."
#"Go for the Throat."
#"Tana."
#"Murder."
#"Tana."
#"Hero's Downfall."
#"Tana."
#"Victim of Night."
#"Tana."
#"Bone Splinters."
#"Fine. Fine. Vile Redeemer kicked, I get a Eldrazi Scion for each time you killed Tana."
#"Which is Zero, 'cause she went to the command zone. Also Dismember the Redeemer."

I think SadisticMystic had a point that stifle and end-the-turn effects would get better/more hateful, but I feel like the conversation got hardcore derailed without any other points against it. Following my intent is to reduce Commander-special rules exceptions, wording the rule as a state-based reaction rather than a stack-using trigger would eliminate any trigger-prevention problems.

Potential wording being "Whenever a Commander is put into a zone besides the Battlefield or Command Zone it's owner may put it into the Command Zone. This decision is made before any other effects resolve and cannot be responded to."

Are there any other problems with this rule change? Do others agree with me that it would make the Commander rule less complex and more like other formats?

EDIT: Yes I did immediately fix an example I realized was borked :P

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 Post subject: Re: A refinement of intent.
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-21 1:33 am 
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Evilkritter wrote:
I see now that posting a commander-ability was a mistake. My intention/desire behind the rule had nothing to do with Commander playability. In fact, I think if my suggested rule were implemented it would have ZERO effect on what commanders could be played.

You're change might have 0 effect on which ones could be played -- but it would certainly affect which ones would be played. That's the part we were talking about.

... and then I said I'd rather focus on making other commanders playable than to 'fix' a rule in a way that reduces decision making.

Also - the way it works may be a 'quirk' of the format, but there's nothing complex about it. Replacement effects are already part of the game. All you're proposing it change it from a replacement effect to a triggered effect.

Evilkritter wrote:
#"Fight your Kambal, Consul of Allocation with my Gruul Ragebeast."
#"I don't know why you bothered, I have Athreos, God of Passage."
#"Well, are you putting Kambal in the Command zone, or letting him die?"
#"Wait, I have to decide first?"
#"Yep."
#"...I guess he's in the Command zone?"

This is an excellent example of having to make people think about what they want to do. If they put it in the graveyard, then they let the opponent choose to pay life, or let them get it back (and recast it without paying commander tax.) If they opponent pays life, then perhaps they have some animation or raise dead effect in hand as a back up. Or something that can exile a card from a graveyard (which would let them move it to the command zone then.)

What you're proposing is something that would take away this interesting decision.

Evilkritter wrote:
Following my intent is to reduce Commander-special rules exceptions, wording the rule as a state-based reaction rather than a stack-using trigger would eliminate any trigger-prevention problems.

if you were to make it a state based trigger -- then the player would either have to always put their commander into the command zone, or the game becomes a draw as it would constantly re-trigger.

Evilkritter wrote:
Potential wording being "Whenever a Commander is put into a zone besides the Battlefield or Command Zone it's owner may put it into the Command Zone. This decision is made before any other effects resolve and cannot be responded to."

"before any other effects" is not a thing in this game. So it seems your claim to want to reduce quirkyness & complexity isn't really true?

Evilkritter wrote:
Do others agree with me that it would make the Commander rule less complex and more like other formats?

1) Hell no.
2) Why do we want commanders to be more like other formats? It's kind of the main part that sets this format apart from other formats.


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 Post subject: Re: A refinement of intent.
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-23 10:42 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Evilkritter wrote:
Potential wording being "Whenever a Commander is put into a zone besides the Battlefield or Command Zone it's owner may put it into the Command Zone. This decision is made before any other effects resolve and cannot be responded to."

"before any other effects" is not a thing in this game. So it seems your claim to want to reduce quirkyness & complexity isn't really true?


Split second is almost there, but there are still other issues.

Carthain wrote:
Evilkritter wrote:
Following my intent is to reduce Commander-special rules exceptions, wording the rule as a state-based reaction rather than a stack-using trigger would eliminate any trigger-prevention problems.

if you were to make it a state based trigger -- then the player would either have to always put their commander into the command zone, or the game becomes a draw as it would constantly re-trigger.

This is a good example of the overall problem. What has been suggested makes sense in practice, but is very hard to write rules for, and it requires a very high level of understanding of the rules to do. It would be best for something like a Judge Emeritus to put together the rules and then we can use common logic to explain how it works, even if that means a few commanders dont work perfectly, but still allows the game to work most of the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-24 3:50 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
So quick question... Is there an effective way to make spells I cast green? I would love a chance to play Deathgrip and counter phage. Otherwise its Thrull Wizard, Withering Boon for counters (I'm not springing for a Nether Void). Then its Torpor Orb, Sundial of the Infinite, Platinum Angel, and Crucible of Worlds to reuse Command Beacon. Other than that I can't think of anything to enable her.


There is also Dash Hopes and Null Brooch. Plus potentially discarding a 7 drop to Kozilek or Donating the demon to an opponent with Endless Whispers. In other words, by the time you have mana to cast her with some level of protection you're essentially guaranteed to have drawn a way to not die to her ETB. That likelyhood further increases if you include black tutors.

It may be some hoops to jump through but it's still extremely likely to happen in nearly every game that gets to that point. By no means is she competitive but she's entirely playable.


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 Post subject: Porblem Sorved
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-25 5:05 pm 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
Last time I played with my group they told me we still get the death trigger if it goes to the command zone and not to rules-lawyer, so I guess we have a house rule now :p. It wasn't a full house so I'm not sure it'll stick, but I'm not gonna push a rule I don't like in a casual format.

I'm on break so I'm gonna risk redundancy with the Phage suggestions. Torpor orb, sundial of the infinite, command beacon, Platinum Angel all let you dodge the command zone suicide. In monoblack you have the best tutors so having to rely on a few enablers isn't a huge deal.

Though if you want to play with Phage putting her in another deck as a "secret commander" (a la Command Zone "Five Color Nekusar") and tutoring her out works just as well, it's not like her dealing Commander Damage makes a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-27 6:45 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Epsilon wrote:
niheloim wrote:
So quick question... Is there an effective way to make spells I cast green? I would love a chance to play Deathgrip and counter phage. Otherwise its Thrull Wizard, Withering Boon for counters (I'm not springing for a Nether Void). Then its Torpor Orb, Sundial of the Infinite, Platinum Angel, and Crucible of Worlds to reuse Command Beacon. Other than that I can't think of anything to enable her.


There is also Dash Hopes and Null Brooch. Plus potentially discarding a 7 drop to Kozilek or Donating the demon to an opponent with Endless Whispers. In other words, by the time you have mana to cast her with some level of protection you're essentially guaranteed to have drawn a way to not die to her ETB. That likelyhood further increases if you include black tutors.

It may be some hoops to jump through but it's still extremely likely to happen in nearly every game that gets to that point. By no means is she competitive but she's entirely playable.

Dash hopes doesnt work. Any player can pay 5 life to counter it.
Null Brooch only counters non-creatures.

But I agree. Shes playable. I disagreed with the notion that she was "perfectly viable"...

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 Post subject: Re: Command Zone Finagling
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-27 8:58 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Would it work if it were:
"If a commander would be put into its owner's graveyard, its owner may instead put it into their graveyard and then the commander zone."


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 Post subject: Dead horse isn't dead!
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-27 9:56 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
MrCool wrote:
Would it work if it were:
"If a commander would be put into its owner's graveyard, its owner may instead put it into their graveyard and then the commander zone."


Tricky but workable, on MTGO it'd just be another check box on your commander.
.
I had an epiphany, there's already an object in Magic that behaves the way I want. Tokens! They enter the other zones the poof to the token box.

Wouldn't Deathgripping Phage just counter her, putting her back in the command zone/graveyard?

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