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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-27 10:11 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
I've given some thought to whether it'd be reasonable to bring up on the spot -- when it's played, mid-game -- to my fellow players (the Overwhelming Splendor player included) that I would really rather not see that card played, ever, and consider it very much anti-fun, and I'd prefer the player discard it and draw another or search their deck for another similarly strong card if they'd prefer, as long as they don't play that one. Even when it's not me being targeted by Overwhelming Splendor.

I do this all the time with cards like Iona and Vorinclex. When I see them my typical response is something to the effect of "Oh, it's one of 'those' kind of decks", which commences a discussion on why I dont like the cards and what they do to the game. I will absolutely try to clone or reanimate them so as to impose the effect on the player who brought them (harder to do with someone else's splendor).

I am pretty outspoken when it comes to commander games though, so I can understand people not wanting to be so blatant about it. Finding a way to express your opinion on the card is important though and given the social nature of the game it is entirely reasonable to bring it up mid-game, the player may even be swayed by your points and ask to take back playing the spell at all if they value the enjoyment of the other players very highly.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-27 11:44 pm 
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Thanks specter404, those are some good thoughts. I am also a fairly outspoken individual which is why I would be content speaking up. Like you said not everyone might be equipped to find a way to vocalise their objection to a card like this being played.

The friend and I spoke some more about at-the-table conversations about cards like Overwhelming Splendor. It's reasonable, but at the moment the spell's resolving, it's hard to tell genuine principled objection from salt. Like, we know here I have a principled objection. But if it's played on me and I bring that up in a random group at my local gaming store of player who don't know me all that well, how do the other players know I'm not just being bitter about being shut down and whining about it? (Hopefully via my body language and tone of voice, but I bet I'd sound and look a bit frustrated at that point.) Like, maybe I'm the kind of player who'd complain until they got their way, they don't know I'm not, so they might not be prepared to listen seriously to my objection.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-28 4:28 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
Age: Elder Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
... at the moment the spell's resolving, it's hard to tell genuine principled objection from salt.

You could talk generally about those types of cards so that it is more clear that it isn't just that one card being played on you. Maybe something like, "I would rather not play against cards that make it so someone can't play the game."


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-28 5:59 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I might run overwhelming splendor, but it would almost always only get played at the end of a match where I was 1v1 with someone. Or if I was going for an aura swap theme and wizards starts supporting moving auras attached to players. Otherwise its a crap card to drop.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-28 9:02 am 
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MrCool wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
... at the moment the spell's resolving, it's hard to tell genuine principled objection from salt.

You could talk generally about those types of cards so that it is more clear that it isn't just that one card being played on you. Maybe something like, "I would rather not play against cards that make it so someone can't play the game."

Also, if you object to those sorts of cards, raise the objection when it's played on other people, not just when it's played on you. Lowers the sodium content quite a bit ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-30 10:14 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MrCool wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
... at the moment the spell's resolving, it's hard to tell genuine principled objection from salt.

You could talk generally about those types of cards so that it is more clear that it isn't just that one card being played on you. Maybe something like, "I would rather not play against cards that make it so someone can't play the game."


That phrasing is a really good way to put it. I'll try that.


Viperion wrote:
MrCool wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
... at the moment the spell's resolving, it's hard to tell genuine principled objection from salt.

You could talk generally about those types of cards so that it is more clear that it isn't just that one card being played on you. Maybe something like, "I would rather not play against cards that make it so someone can't play the game."

Also, if you object to those sorts of cards, raise the objection when it's played on other people, not just when it's played on you. Lowers the sodium content quite a bit ;)


I agree with that, but that's part of the whole "they don't know me" thing -- if they see me objecting to the same played on other people, cool, they'll get to know me as not just being salty about it. If this is my first game and Overwhelming Splendor gets played on me specifically and this is my first objection they've not got much context to go by to judge sodium content.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-30 10:34 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Jul-25 1:15 pm
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Location: Durham, England
I think the best card to compare to Overwhelming Splendour is Door to Nothingness. As my primary deck is a Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury control deck, I can only theorise what it feels like to be hit by it. The big thing though is that for most decks, your answers are going to be limited and for both my opponents hit by it I was being blamed for their predicament continuing. My playgroup is overly fond of grixis colours and as the "green player", I'm treated like the enchantment/Artifact janitor, so I believe that scenario is exacerbated by the circumstance.

The take away for me though is that Door to Nothingness would have caused the same situation except without (false) hope for a comeback, I mean, the only play Black or Red can really make once they see the card is tutoring for Spine of Ish Sah with Demonic Tutor or something.

In theory, a winning player would be unlikely to eliminate the number 2 player by just dropping the curse on them (as that would cause the players lower on the totem pole to support the enemy of their enemy). But a winning player could easily have the enchantment dropped on them and be out of luck with no way to respond.

I think the worst offence of Overwhelming Splendour, is what it makes the correct play for the victim. With Door to Nothingness, they jumped through a big hoop to put you in the big hoop, the game's done for you, you can leave. With Overwhelming Splendour you've lost the game, but the correct play is to stick around to spite your killer, as they can't take their trump card back. As such, it's in your other opponents' best interests for you to remain in that limbo as well.

If the enchantment ever gets removed (which could be by its casters' elimination), you can end up having spent so much time digging for your answer and not being able to do very much that you can't come back. There are certainly decks like mine or creatureless Talrand that it's ineffective against, but for the typical commander decks I see the card is a very deadly whammy.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-01 1:39 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ski Gloves wrote:
I think the worst offence of Overwhelming Splendour, is what it makes the correct play for the victim. With Door to Nothingness, they jumped through a big hoop to put you in the big hoop, the game's done for you, you can leave. With Overwhelming Splendour you've lost the game, but the correct play is to stick around to spite your killer, as they can't take their trump card back. As such, it's in your other opponents' best interests for you to remain in that limbo as well.


That's what concerns me about it too! At least with Door to Nothingness, the card says "you can pack up now". Overwhelming Splendor (effectively) says "you've basically lost, but not officially yet, so stick around a bit to get defeated on the off chance it can get removed, but that won't be soon because you're the last priority now and nobody has a reason to finish you off." It's an 8-mana "make a person have a bad game" spell -- unless we personally have the knowhow to socially discuss it.

The friend who I refer to in the OP mentioned when we first talked about it that they wouldn't have minded so much if they were at least finished off quickly.

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 Post subject: Sequence break, comment then read other responses :P
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-05 9:33 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
I can see why you would be concerned by this, it is a very powerful effect, but here's my case for it being less-awful than things we already have.

First, some similes.
-It's like an 8 mana boardwipe, but you get your stuff back if it goes away and you have ground blockers.
-It's like an 8 mana Linvala, Keeper of Silence or Damping Matrix for all permanants, that makes your creatures smaller.
-It's like an 8 mana Humility.
-It's like an 8 mana Stony Silence that doesn't hit mana abilities.

So the primary reasons why I think it's less frustrating than Dovin Baan's emblem, Narset Transcendent's emblem, and Winter Orb.

First reason is that it hits ONE player, making it much less of a slow-roll "victory assured" card. The player who is hit has all non-creature answers live, (instant, sorcery, enchantment, planeswalker, or artifact).
Secondly it is slow and removable, wheras most of the other similar effects to this tend to be MUCH cheaper (as mentioned Humility and Linvala, Keeper of Silence) or MUCH harder to remove (The aforementioned planeswalker emblems, which require only a Deepglow Skate or Doubling Season to pull off immediately).

Yeah it's effective at forcing creatures decks to come up with an answer, but an 8 mana targeted pseudo-boardwipe should be. It'll feel bad when you get hit, but not as bad as so many of the other mana-intensive goozlers we already have.

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 Post subject: Re: Sequence break, comment then read other responses :P
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-05 11:09 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Evilkritter wrote:
I can see why you would be concerned by this, it is a very powerful effect, but here's my case for it being less-awful than things we already have.

First, some similes.
-It's like an 8 mana boardwipe, but you get your stuff back if it goes away and you have ground blockers.
-It's like an 8 mana Linvala, Keeper of Silence or Damping Matrix for all permanants, that makes your creatures smaller.
-It's like an 8 mana Humility.
-It's like an 8 mana Stony Silence that doesn't hit mana abilities.

I appreciate that these are similes. I'd like to respond to the parallels you're drawing to show why I think it's a bit more concerning than that.

Quote:
-It's like an 8 mana boardwipe, but you get your stuff back if it goes away and you have ground blockers.

It's fundamentally different to a boardwipe: wipes happen once then go away and you move past them. Once someone plays Wrath of God I can get back on my game plan, my commander's still available and I've got creatures I can cast still. Overwhelming Splendor doesn't go away: I can't get other meaningful creatures out again, and I can't get my commander back in a meaningful fashion (it's a 1/1 with no abilities -- that's not my commander at all).

A closer analogy to "it's a board wipe but you get your stuff back if it goes away" might be Consulate Crackdown or Aligned Hedron Network, and these don't shut you down from getting more of the same cards out after the wipe's happened, and they don't stop me summoning my commander back.

Also, a single Golgari Charm can kill all of my vanilla 1/1s which means I don't get my stuff back. (At least if they were exiled they'd be protected from that.)

Quote:
-It's like an 8 mana Linvala, Keeper of Silence or Damping Matrix for all permanants, that makes your creatures smaller.
-It's like an 8 mana Humility.
-It's like an 8 mana Stony Silence that doesn't hit mana abilities.

I agree with that, and I'd also add that it's like an 8-mana Hushwing Gryff.

But let's look at what all of this means: it's a humility and a stony silence and a dampening matrix or a Linvala, Keeper of Silence (except not a creature, so it's less likely people will have answers for it) and a Hushwing Gryff and it's like a board wipe that stops you from having meaningful creatures again (until you remove it).

I'd like to draw our attention to Prophet of Kruphix: being like Seedborn Muse was fine, and being like Yeva, Nature's Herald was fine, but being both of those at the same time was too much and got Prophet of Kruphix banned.

Just like Prophet of Kruphix, Overwhelming Splendor is like a lot of things, and being like each of those things is okay on an individual basis, but being all of those things at once is something I see as a big problem. (I'll touch back on Prophet of Kruphix shortly.)

Then we add in this bit...
Quote:
First reason is that it hits ONE player, making it much less of a slow-roll "victory assured" card. The player who is hit has all non-creature answers live, (instant, sorcery, enchantment, planeswalker, or artifact).

When we combine all of those things and have them all affect uniquely just one player, the problem isn't with the way it might make its caster win, the problem is the way it does all those things to just one person with the result of shutting that one person out of the game until they can draw an answer or convince someone else to use one of their answers (if/when that person even finds one). I'd want to free that player just because I feel bad for them.

The affected individual can either scoop (which makes Overwhelming Splendor an 8-mana sorcery-speed "target player forfeits the game" card) or keep playing in the hopes they eventually get freed of the card and get to get things back on track, and if they choose that last one they realistically might not be having any fun at all for the remainder of the game. (Based on maths I did at the bottom of this post, it's going to be virtually 1-2% of games, if even that many, that the effected individual already has an answer available.)

That's all the "feels bad" effects of the old tuck rule turned up to 11.

---

I believe it's a problematic card not because it makes anyone win (it'd be better if it helped someone win, because at least the game would be over for the person with Overwhelming Splendor on them) but because of the way it violates the social contract of EDH and causes massive levels of un-fun for the affected player.

Earlier in the thread we discussed ways we could talk about that card and hopefully persuade the group and the caster this card just shouldn't be used. I'll do that myself when I see it, though not everyone is capable of doing that. I think the rules committee ought to save people the effort and the bad memories and ban the card.

I drew a comparison before to Prophet of Kruphix: that card was banned because it was found to be so good it was warping the format in favour of green-blue decks. Overwhelming Splendor's unlikely to have that problem; in fact I expect it to be unpopular and not played much. I think it does have the problem though of doing far too much at once to turn games into a bad memory for a player if/when it does show up, and its presence compromises EDH as a fun casual format, and the degree of damage it does combined with the fact people probably won't want to play it much means there's good reason to ban it and not much loss in doing so. And if it does become frequently used, all the more reason to ban it.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-06 2:02 am 

Joined: 2017-Jan-15 11:59 am
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Do you see people going out of their way, building new decks just to use Overwhelming Splendor? Unless it's some gitchy curse-tribal deck, you really, really don't. It is a proactive answer, as white is wont to have, and it doesn't enable any combos.

First time I ever had OS played on me, you know what I did? I dug. I dug until I hit Austere Command, then fired that off hitting enchantments and CMC3- creatures. I proceeded to swing lethal CMDdmg aganst the guy who played it.

Overwhelming Splendor is a boogeyman. It's something that seems worse than it is. Unless you're playing 63 nonland permanents with no planeswalkers or Spine of Ish Sah, it's REALLY answerable. Just make sure to include a modicum of instants and sorceries that answer things, or tech around OS's presence in your meta. Witchbane Orb is a thing. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-06 5:47 am 
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(Edit a day later: I fear I might be coming across as argumentative or overly defensive to responses here to the potential effect of stifling discussion on the card, so I'm going to give this thread a rest for a few days and try to respond a bit less to it.)

Scherezad wrote:
Do you see people going out of their way, building new decks just to use Overwhelming Splendor? Unless it's some gitchy curse-tribal deck, you really, really don't. It is a proactive answer, as white is wont to have, and it doesn't enable any combos.


Some usage statistics from the sources I know of:


I'm not sure how to give those numbers context or proportion, but we are seeing people using it in online deck construction tools & in real play.

I don't imagine anyone's going out of their way to use it. I don't think it's damaging the format by warping it toward white decks. I do think it's as bad as it sounds when it shows up.

Quote:
First time I ever had OS played on me, you know what I did? I dug. I dug until I hit Austere Command, then fired that off hitting enchantments and CMC3- creatures. I proceeded to swing lethal CMDdmg aganst the guy who played it.

Overwhelming Splendor is a boogeyman. It's something that seems worse than it is. Unless you're playing 63 nonland permanents with no planeswalkers or Spine of Ish Sah, it's REALLY answerable. Just make sure to include a modicum of instants and sorceries that answer things, or tech around OS's presence in your meta. Witchbane Orb is a thing. :)


Congrats! It's good to hear you came out victorious & managed to get rid of this.

I don't think it's fair to say it's "really answerable". It shuts down a whole category of its own removal options (creature-based removal, activated abilities of anything) and cards that do that aren't "really removable" by dint of their own functionality.

In an earlier post (link; see last section) I ran some math: if our deck has 10 total removal and 5 can remove Overwhelming Splendor, we'll most likely see 1-2 of those 5 in the whole game, and we can only use those to remove Overwhelming Splendor if we haven't already used them on something else (which we could have, since we can't tell the future). I think that's pretty low chances of escaping it, but something that might eventually happen. That's more than a modicum of instants and sorceries. (These figures don't factor in tutors or effects like Bloodwater Entity/Charmbreaker Devils. If there's heavy card draw available, the number bumps up to 2-3 cards.)

It may seem worse than it is, but if it seems really awful for the player subjected to it, that's as good as it really being awful in terms of the memories they'll take away from the table. (In contrast, maybe it seems not as bad as it is to you because you managed to overcome it in that one game, and to me it seems worse than it is because a friend of mine had one of their worst games ever because of it in their one game.)

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