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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-24 12:14 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
What the hell enchantment removal has a counter theme?

Well, there's Wickerbough Elder. However
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Also -- yes, sometimes you just have to have a few cards that abandon your theme in order to shore up some potential weaknesses. Or you accept that weakness and push your theme harder.
This is a True Statement™

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-24 3:54 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Spectrar Ghost wrote:
There's a strange sense of entitlement there.


This.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-24 3:57 pm 
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Wolfsbane706 wrote:
I'd like to point out that "cannot gain counters" doesn't mean "cannot change its power/toughness". There's a lot of cards that increase and decrease pt without bestowing counters.

Which after some not-so-careful thought, is most of the stat boosting cards in the game. Honestly, this card is stupendously easy to work around.

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The cards didn't just warp the way the games were played, they warped how I was conceiving and perceiving the format. That's the sign of a problem.

Carthain wrote:
The idea that you should be able to build your deck however you want and still be competitive is false, and a bad idea to have. Taken to the extreme, that's like making a deck with no removal in it, and then complaining that you can't win because stuff your opponents play gets in your way.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-24 10:51 pm 
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The Solemnity discussion should probably occur in a different topic. Could I invite one of you interested in discussing that card to open a topic about it?

Once it's created I'll also link to it in my OP.

I find the controversy over Solemnity being pretty understandable especially given the release of recent products e.g. Atraxa's Breed Lethality deck and the current block having a significant theme of -1/-1 counters. I can also understand discussing them here since Solemnity and Overwhelming Splendor were released together and are thematically similar in that they're shutdown cards. However there's a lot of ground for discussion on Solemnity that I think would flourish best in its own space separate from discussing Overwhelming Splendor.

If they're both connected we could discuss them both separately then connect the discussions together later.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-25 4:14 am 
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Perhaps a stickied thread called "Griefer Cards: The Butthurtening" or something more clever so it's a one stop shop for discussion about such cards. This way we don't clog up the forum with a bunch of different topics about single cards that all share a perceived label of "stax" or "griefer". I know there's the ban suggestions and ban card x threads, but this seems to be different enough to warrant its own space. A free speech zone for pissing and moaning as well as debate.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-25 10:23 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I don't see this card as being banworthy. It costs eight mana in one of the slowest colours in the game. It doesn't do a hell of a lot on its own, except annoy one specific player. That player can likely remove it at some point, unless they're in mono-black or mono-red, in which case they may well have "Disk" effects. Is it annoying, in the same way that Humility or Tabernacle or stax effects are annoying? Sure. But it's just...not that good. You can still use your planeswalkers, for one, and the game is a social one so asking your friends to tablemates to help might be a start. Asking the offending player to remove it from their deck if it's too annoying might be another option.

I mean...eight mana permanent that doesn't win the game. Green, especially, should be able to deal with this easily.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-25 10:57 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
CrazyPierre wrote:
and the game is a social one so asking your friends to tablemates to help might be a start.
... Green, especially, should be able to deal with this easily.

Combine the two, "Hey, Mr green player, blow up that splendor and I will use my creatures to smash it's former controller into little pieces."

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-25 12:36 pm 
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Age: Elder Dragon
CrazyPierre wrote:
in which case they may well have "Disk" effects.

I just want to note that Overwhelming Splendor prevents that player from activating something like Disk or O-Stone.

Sooo... not quite so easy for red/black to deal with it on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-25 1:10 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Sooo... not quite so easy for red/black to deal with it on them.


Which differs from any other enchantment how? Colors that already can't deal with enchantments having issues dealing with a new enchantment is hardly an issue. Circumventing a workaround is not damning. Null Rod or mass indestructible spells are already a thing.

Both colors can still deal with it with various spells and forced sacrifices... or just attacking and politics.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-25 9:43 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Ok, so, I'll catalogue the shut-downs and non-shut-downs of this card. Let me know if I missed anything.

For that one player:

  • All creatures are vanilla 1/1s without any abilities. They will have no activated or triggered abilities.
  • The player cannot activate abilities of anything at all, with a couple of exceptions.
  • The player can still activate mana abilities (but not on creatures, since they have none)
  • The player can still activate loyalty abilities of planeswalkers
  • The player can cast spells.
  • Their creatures may still be affected by other features e.g. Beastmaster Ascension.

This cuts out some common responses:


Quote:
It doesn't do a hell of a lot on its own, except annoy one specific player.

I think it does a hell of a lot. "You have no worthwhile creatures and can't activate anything even on non-creatures except to get mana" is a hell of a lot. ("or use your planeswalkers" if the player might actually happen to have one out.)

That it affects only one specific player and nobody else is, I think, specifically a strike against this card because of the dynamic it creates in shutting that player and just that player out of the game and bothering nobody else.

Quote:
I mean...eight mana permanent that doesn't win the game. Green, especially, should be able to deal with this easily.
Quote:
Colors that already can't deal with enchantments having issues dealing with a new enchantment is hardly an issue. Circumventing a workaround is not damning. Null Rod or mass indestructible spells are already a thing.

Both colors can still deal with it with various spells and forced sacrifices... or just attacking and politics.


Whilst I think it's fair to say that in theory each color can possibly have answers to this card, that isn't the same in practice. These "sure but they can deal with it" assume the players must have the right cards available at the right times, which is unlikely.

Here's the situation I've got in mind:

  • In any given deck I'll have approximately 60 non-land cards. Of those, I might devote a maximum of 10 to removal/wipe effects, since I have a core strategy & other things to do with my deck. Let's go with something neat and say I have exactly 10 removal/wipe cards. We'll assume none of those 10 are creatures -- if I do have two-for-one removal creatures (e.g. Cataclysmic Gearhulk, Reclamation Sage) we'll count them in the other 50.
  • Let's optimistically say half of my removal/wipe effects can hit enchantments. This means I have 5 cards in my deck that can deal with Overwhelming Splendor.
  • In any given game I expect to only draw about 1/3 of the cards in my deck at most, so of those 5 cards, I expect to draw 1 or 2 of them in the entire game. In a very generous situation (someone's has Well of Ideas or Temple Bell out) I'll draw half my deck and might get 2-3 of these cards. Of course, I could draw none or all 5.

Further, even if I do draw them, I have to have not used them on anything else first -- I could've used Putrefy on an enemy creature or used Krosan Grip on that Darksteel Mutation someone played on my commander. Chances are by the time I get hit by Overwhelming Splendor I'll just be waiting on topdecking something helpful. There are other threats to respond to and I can't know I'll be hit by Overwhelming Splendor a few turns later.

So while theoretically there are cards available, in practice the chances are low I might have any of them available when it matters in a format where inconsistency is a deliberate part of the fun. Either that, or I must expect my opponents to have those same cards available and decide that it's beneficial to use them to help me out. That theoretical possibility doesn't stop this potentially being a fun-destroying card in the majority of games it appears.

I'll point back to the OP where the friend of mine shut out of the game was playing a green/black deck but never drew the 2 specific cards in their deck that could have removed this enchantment, and ended the game with 2 other enchantment removal cards actually in their hand which they couldn't use because they were creatures.

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


Last edited by spacemonaut on 2017-Jul-26 1:40 am, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-26 12:16 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Out of curiosity - did your friend just sit there and bemoan his predicament? Or did he try to wheel & deal with other players to try to get them to help him out?

Because this is supposed to be a multiplayer format - so in-game politics is certainly a thing to check for and try.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-26 1:23 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Out of curiosity - did your friend just sit there and bemoan his predicament? Or did he try to wheel & deal with other players to try to get them to help him out?

Because this is supposed to be a multiplayer format - so in-game politics is certainly a thing to check for and try.


I checked in with my friend about this. Here's what they described to me:

They were in a 3-player game so there wasn't much opportunity to try making deals. The third player did actually manage to remove it for them once, but the player who owned Overwhelming Splendor managed to get it back onto the battlefield within the same turn cycle, and afterwards neither my friend nor the third player were able to remove it.

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-26 1:58 am 
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Ok, so he did try (and succeed) in getting help to have it removed. Cool.

But, that does alter your above numbers -- so while a single player may draw 1-3 (I'll use a slightly broader range than you) answers -- another player may draw an answer that can also be used to remove that enchantment. So, it's not quite as doom & gloom as you seemed to be portraying it.

Has your friend talked to the player of the card to essentially say "Dude, that wasn't cool -- powerful yes, but really not fun from this side of the table. Can you no use it anymore?"

Because - I think we all pretty much agree here its a "griefer" card. Which means playing it is done to cause "suffering" in other players -- especially if a player has stated they dislike it. So if that player continue to play it ... there may be a potential player issue at hand.

.. Or, we may over time have more and more people complaining about it and it may turn into one of those things where people can't control themselves with it, so it gets banned (such as with Sylvan Primordial)

I don't think we are, yet, at the point where banning is really a consideration. But that may change over time.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-26 6:51 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Has your friend talked to the player of the card to essentially say "Dude, that wasn't cool -- powerful yes, but really not fun from this side of the table. Can you no use it anymore?"

Because - I think we all pretty much agree here its a "griefer" card. Which means playing it is done to cause "suffering" in other players -- especially if a player has stated they dislike it. So if that player continue to play it ... there may be a potential player issue at hand.


I completely agree with that, and I'd do that. I'm conscious it takes a certain level of bravery, or understanding of it being an OK request, to speak up like that though. Would you agree in your experience, or are things not like that as far as you've experienced them? I mostly play Commander in a local game store against random people and a couple of regulars, and I might see people with any degree of preparedness to say something like that. I haven't been playing Commander at a game store long though so I'm not sure what I should be expecting.

I've given some thought to whether it'd be reasonable to bring up on the spot -- when it's played, mid-game -- to my fellow players (the Overwhelming Splendor player included) that I would really rather not see that card played, ever, and consider it very much anti-fun, and I'd prefer the player discard it and draw another or search their deck for another similarly strong card if they'd prefer, as long as they don't play that one. Even when it's not me being targeted by Overwhelming Splendor.

Quote:
Ok, so he did try (and succeed) in getting help to have it removed. Cool.


I also agree it was good they could reach out to another player to remove it. I'd just... rather that kind of negotiation occur with less un-fun cards? Like I've been in games where we made agreements to work against a Medomai Voltron commander, but that was net positive fun where we were all trying do more, not net negative saving ourselves from crap un-fun play where someone just simply cannot do anything meaningful and we're obligated to do something to help them be able to contribute whatsoever.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Overwhelming Splendor
AgePosted: 2017-Jul-26 7:32 am 
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Aura Shards still works, and red has Chaos Warp. Yes, it's not the most fun to be slapped with an enchantment that neuters your creatures, but it also costs 8 mana. If it's drawn naturally and not repeatedly tutored for, great, one player is neutered until some kind of solution can be found either in the targeted player's deck or via some politicking. If it becomes an issue, then as others have said, talk to the player in question and figure something out. If you don't want to play against the card at all, then maybe it would be better to try and locate or establish a regular playgroup who shares your vision of a fun game. It sucks to have your board neutered, but maybe try making some changes to your deck to include more catch-all or multi-modal answers so you have an out. A variety of artifact/enchantment removal is always a good idea, and if you want to play red, black or both togerher, understand you may get screwed over by enchantments from time to time.

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specter404 wrote:
Basically, when it comes to commander, I want you to stab me through the heart, not cut off my balls.

Gath Immortal wrote:
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