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 Post subject: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-01 7:41 am 

Joined: 2017-Aug-01 7:32 am
Age: Egg
I registered on your forum to tell you your banlist allows far too many infinite combos and infinite combos effectively killed your format. We had a lot of fun with your format, and I still believe it's the best format for casual groups. But you have been very very lazy.

We have now reached a meta wherein combo decks cannot be stopped.

There's is NO WAY aggro or control can win a 4 player game. So basically this format has turned into a 'everyone dead by turn 6' nonsense fest. It's boring and frankly a tragedy. Why haven't you stopped this? Why is something like Jarad (general) + phyrexian devourer allowed? You do know it can be played from the graveyard, right?

I just wanted to let you know your format is dead where I live.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-01 8:33 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Dont let the door hit you on the way out.

RichardCardfield wrote:
But you have been very very lazy.

You have allowed your social group to devolve into combos, you do not have the creativity to find soltuions to your problems, and you come here to blame the creators of the format because you cant play the game they created properly despite thousands of people around the world doing so... but yeah, the RC is lazy.

If you want support and advice on how to fix or rebuild your meta, then take some responsibility and ask nicely, if not, return to line 1.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-01 8:38 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Have you tried to just win with a faster combo?

Or you could, you know, talk to people. If people like the format but don't like a certain aspect of it, why don't you just stop doing the thing which everyone finds displeasing? Or if there's a certain group of people that refuse to stop playing a way you don't like, stop playing with those individuals.

Because I can assure you, despite your local meta, the format is very much alive and well.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-01 8:47 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
*world's smallest violin plays*

For a social format, your group of players seems to have missed the entire point of the format to begin with. The simplest way you could explain it is the way I do to new players in my group: "Create games you would like to remember, not ones others would like to forget."


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-01 9:19 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
RichardCardfield wrote:
killed your format
Quote:
it's the best format for casual groups.
I'd argue it's impossible for these two statements to both be true. If a format was designed to be a casual format and it still succeeds at that, it can't possibly be dead.

Quote:
We have now reached a meta wherein combo decks cannot be stopped.

There's is NO WAY aggro or control can win a 4 player game. So basically this format has turned into a 'everyone dead by turn 6' nonsense fest
This is just straight up false. First off, most actually powerful combo decks shoot for turn 2 or 3 and usually make it by turn 4. And if anything goes wrong for them, they're useless for the rest of the game. It is true that high powered metas are extremely unfriendly to aggro decks, but that's more due to the 40 life 3+ player format than it is the viability of combos. And control decks are rampant, especially if you include stuff like Stax.

Quote:
Why is something like Jarad, + phyrexian devourer allowed?
Because if that gets banned, the guy playing it will just move on to Kiki-Jiki and Pestermite. Then once that gets the axe Triskelion and Mikaeus,
the Unhallowed
become the flavor of the month. Then people start playing all the possible ways to abuse Palinchron, Panharmonicon, Paradox Engine, Deadeye Navigator, Doubling Season, Sanguine Bond, Rings of Brighthearth, The Chain Veil, Mana Reflection, Phyrexian Metamorph, Alluren, and scores of other cards that are probably more dangerous than the ones I've named anyway. And why stop when all of those are banned? It's not exactly a combo, but cards like Craterhoof Behemoth, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite, Hermit Druid, and Expropriate all tend to win the game the instant they show up.

EDH is a relatively slow format that uses Vintage's cardpool. If the RC were to seriously try to limit the power of combo decks by just banning the worst offenders, we'd have to be at a 100+ card banlist before there's even a noticeable dent. I personally would argue that a far superior tactic would be to ban all of the overpowered enabler cards (fast mana, cheap tutors, cards like Doomsday or [card]Ad Nauseam[/card), and even then we'd still be looking at a far larger banlist than I think the vast majority of players would be comfortable with. And when you ban those cards, that means all the players that weren't trying to break the format with them now lose on a cool option for their deck. Doing this very thing is (for the most part) what ended up actually killing 5-color Star Magic.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-01 5:17 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Oh, spare us. There is always going to be something to whine about. There are plenty of aggro decks in the format, and people complain that those are unfair too. Ezuri, Krenko, Purphoros, Sidisi the Brood Mother, Kaalia. These are extremely aggressive decks that are far more than capable of taking down a four-man pod in a meta where something as weak as Jarad (actual LOL) is a problem, and I hear no end to the bitching whenever someone plays these. And that's not even giving credit to the tempo decks like Talrand or Edric that will straight murder a table by turn 3 or 4.

The kind of game you want does not exist within the realm of Magic: the Gathering without some serious group planning, period. There will never, ever be a time when playing Craw Wurms and turning them sideways is going to beat any kind of cohesive, synergistic strategy, fully tuned or otherwise, with or without combos. And don't come on here complaining about competitive whatever, because those decks will kill you on turn 2 if you aren't ready for them, so I know that's not what is happening if Jarad is running away with your game. If you're going 7, 8+ turns, you're doing better than even Standard has to offer, on average. If you can't close it out with combat damage by then, it's not because the other decks are unfair - it's because you're not playing a good aggro deck.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-01 9:04 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Jan-28 5:35 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Seattle
Man why did no one tell me EDH was dead and buried until now?!

I've been making the mistake of playing games and having fun I feel like a total ass.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-02 4:28 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
This never stops being relevant: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=6821


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-02 5:17 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
I came here because I heard there was shark-infested custard. Just point me in the right direction.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-02 7:36 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Quote:
There's is NO WAY aggro or control can win a 4 player game

Serious point - no banned list in the history of any format has ever been able to "solve" casual multiplayer.

Commander didn't solve it either, and made the decision to side-step the issue by downloading it onto the playgroups themselves.

To phrase it via cliche:

Commander is the worst form of casual multiplayer, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-02 7:38 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
So if the banlist is supposedly fixed, what use has the proposed secondary list? I'm confused.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-02 5:08 pm 

Joined: 2017-Aug-02 4:35 pm
Age: Hatchling
Can you please explain to me how does World Fire becomes banned and Protagenius and Door to Nothingness isn't? I'm not complaining I am just trying to figure this out. World Fire exiles everything and reduces life to 1 on every player. Door to Nothingness tap two of all 5 color mana and you win the game. Protagenius pro everything all you can do is give him negative counters to kill him. I am searching for this answer because it doesn't make any sense to me. Thank You.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-02 11:40 pm 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
Age: Dragon
Door to Nothingness isn't indestructible, nor does it have shroud or hexproof AND comes into play tapped. Any "destroy target artifact" spell or ability in the game hoses it. Progenitus dies to every boardwipe in the game and can be countered. Neither win the game the turn they come into play without some serious support. They also only can affect one opponent at a time. Worldfire effectively reads: "6RRR", shuffle up and start a new game."

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-03 7:14 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
mike325 wrote:
Protagenius pro everything all you can do is give him negative counters to kill him.
You can also cast Wrath of God or any card that looks anything like it.

Also, even if it were indestructible and uncounterable and had Melira's Keepers's ability, Progenitus would still be effectively a 10/10 unblockable for 10. In the same format as cards like Consecrated Sphinx, Serra Avatar, and Omniscience, that's not exactly the most threatening kid on the block.

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 Post subject: Ugh, Moooooooooooooooooooom! They're feeding the scrub again
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-04 9:48 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
I didn't reply when I first saw this because I assumed it'd just sink to the bottom of the forum for irrelevance. But I guess I'll chime in.

Solutions to a combo heavy meta (producing an unfun experience)

1) Discuss with group about cutting back on Combo. Easy solution if you have a tight-knit playgroup who is open to metagame agreements.

2) Get a control deck running all the combo shutdowns tuned with your playgroup in mind; Torpor Orb, Eidolon of Rhetoric, Stony Silence, Rest in Peace, Damping Matrix, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Thalia, the Absolute MonsterThalia, Heretic Cathar. (This is the spikiest solution)
If you are willing to mind-game the change, run counter spells and stunt whoever goes off first. If going off first makes someone lose to whoever is going off second, they'll slow down a bit.

3) Look for a different playgroup. (This is the nuclear option)

Hope that helps! Good luck digging out from under the dogpile :P

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