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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-18 11:50 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I was thinking... we dismiss the idea of “fixing” the banlist pretty easily, but is there merit in the notion of a secondary? Not so much a banlist, as an official “tread carefully” list that groups could point to in order to give weight to their housebans?

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-18 6:20 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
potatomonkey38 wrote:
If that happens it's after the first game usually
Then you and your group need to be proactive in that discussion. You can't wait for there to be a problem a seventh time, and blame anything but the known quantity that EDH is easy to break. You need to be in front of that.

niheloim wrote:
I was thinking... we dismiss the idea of “fixing” the banlist pretty easily, but is there merit in the notion of a secondary? Not so much a banlist, as an official “tread carefully” list that groups could point to in order to give weight to their housebans?
To what end? Thats not officially anything. There is black, and white. Anything else has to be agreed on by players, its not a surprise what cards are broken.

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niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-20 10:06 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
niheloim wrote:
I was thinking... we dismiss the idea of “fixing” the banlist pretty easily, but is there merit in the notion of a secondary? Not so much a banlist, as an official “tread carefully” list that groups could point to in order to give weight to their housebans?
To what end? Thats not officially anything. There is black, and white. Anything else has to be agreed on by players, its not a surprise what cards are broken.[/quote]
To what end? Did you read what I wrote? The end is in there- to give weight to house-bans. As well it can give newer, inexperienced groups a better idea of what to avoid. After all, we get sooooo many new players asking why such-and-such card is banned or not banned I would think it apparent that to new players there is a lot of grey area.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-20 5:45 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
niheloim wrote:
To what end? Did you read what I wrote? The end is in there- to give weight to house-bans. As well it can give newer, inexperienced groups a better idea of what to avoid. After all, we get sooooo many new players asking why such-and-such card is banned or not banned I would think it apparent that to new players there is a lot of grey area.
'Giving weight' to house bans isnt black and white, so this is no different than 'or cards like these' on the ban list page. Its also effectively a watchlist, just something else people would just complain what is and is not on it. It fixes nothing.

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sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-20 10:45 pm 
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niheloim wrote:
I was thinking... we dismiss the idea of “fixing” the banlist pretty easily, but is there merit in the notion of a secondary? Not so much a banlist, as an official “tread carefully” list that groups could point to in order to give weight to their housebans?

I'd like something like that.

A guide list of patterns and card types to be careful around, on account of them posing some potential issue to the format's gameplay whilst not being ban-worthy, would be helpful in me navigating deck construction and conversations with other players.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-21 3:40 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
MRHblue wrote:
niheloim wrote:
To what end? Did you read what I wrote? The end is in there- to give weight to house-bans. As well it can give newer, inexperienced groups a better idea of what to avoid. After all, we get sooooo many new players asking why such-and-such card is banned or not banned I would think it apparent that to new players there is a lot of grey area.
'Giving weight' to house bans isnt black and white, so this is no different than 'or cards like these' on the ban list page. Its also effectively a watchlist, just something else people would just complain what is and is not on it. It fixes nothing.

There is a difference between a watchlist and "cards like these" and what I'm suggesting.

The idea that the ban list "may steer your playgroup to avoid other, similar cards" is great, but in practice it is difficult to decide what constitutes similarity. What similar cards does Panoptic Mirror point to? Does Tinker tell me not to play Reshape? What card on the ban list tells me that Hermit Druid might be problematic?

A watchlist, as previously used, isn't the same as what I'm proposing, as these are cards that the rules committee is/was explicitly admitting might be worth banning. That can be a direct route to argument over bannings.

As for what it fixes- I don't expect there is anything that can be done to end all argument and discussion over bannings. The question is whether or not such a list- cards that can cause problems when used irresponsibly- would have benefit for new players, or allow groups to better regulate themselves. Because "cards like these" are not black and white it can be difficult for groups to figure things out.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-21 3:49 am 
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niheloim wrote:
What similar cards does Panoptic Mirror point to? Does Tinker tell me not to play Reshape? What card on the ban list tells me that Hermit Druid might be problematic?

To play full devil's advocate...

Panoptic Mirror points to cards like DEN that can too easily turn into value-durdling instead of actually playing the game.

There are two types of cards that are similar to Tinker in a negative way: powerful effects that are way undercosted, and tutors in general.

Hermit Druid's best comparison would probably be Tinker to be honest as it has a lot of the same problems. And that's part of the reason Tinker is banned while Druid isn't: Tinker's problems persist no matter what deck you put it in, whereas it is possible to build a deck where Hermit Druid is both useful and fair.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-21 4:49 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Sid the Chicken wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
As long as a format adopts a "The player is the problem, not the rules" mentality, exists there will always be some toxicity between players. There's not much to be done about that.


FTFY. #cynicism

True, but other formats don't provide grounds for that toxicity within their philosophy. They fix or attempt to fix their problems with new rules, regulations, or ban list additions. Conversely, this format solves its problems by holding the player culpable for being too win-oriented, and this indirectly implies either a vindication of toxic attitudes towards those win-oriented players or a lack of concern for the consequences of such attitudes. This, I think, is the biggest price to pay for being casual-only.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-21 10:54 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
This, I think, is the biggest price to pay for being casual-only.

Yeeeessssss


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-22 12:27 am 
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Joined: 2014-Jul-28 8:30 am
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MMLgamer wrote:
True, but other formats don't provide grounds for that toxicity within their philosophy. They fix or attempt to fix their problems with new rules, regulations, or ban list additions. Conversely, this format solves its problems by holding the player culpable for being too win-oriented, and this indirectly implies either a vindication of toxic attitudes towards those win-oriented players or a lack of concern for the consequences of such attitudes. This, I think, is the biggest price to pay for being casual-only.


Well said. I came to EDH after playing Legacy pretty consistently for five or six years. I moved, went to grad school and didn't have time really to search out the pockets of Legacy here in Denver. I'd also sold a lot of my legacy stuff (not that I had all that much to begin with) to subsidize some of the moving costs. EDH seemed to me a way to recapture the spirit of the janky, fun decks I built and played in high school (I had a shuffle deck with psychogenic probe and soldier of fortune and a god awful mortal combat deck that used Iname, Death Aspect to dump spirits into my graveyard) but also draw on a wider cardpool to play synergistic, powerful decks with the legacy stuff I still had left. Brewing decks is one of my favorite things to do and I loved the variety of directions that having access to the massive cardpool (especially all those busted toys I never got to tinker with in legacy) that the format allowed. It seemed like the perfect place for creativity and competition.

But this feeling has changed over the years, it could be that this is because this website is the primary place I come to for EDH discussion and my perspective on deck building and game play is very different than the vocal majority here, so I could just be in the wrong place, but I'm not so sure. I stopped in at a new game store a couple of months ago to play some EDH and found myself holding back a winning hand because of the stigma of being deemed a cutthroat in the face of unknown players because of the attitudes about the social contract and "player responsibility". It felt wrong and devalued my experience because it became less about the game and more about management of everyone's expectations. I don't want the game to be over on turn 3 or 4 by any means, but having to pull punches because I'm afraid of being dismissed as a try-hard or my deck is just a pile of good stuff doesn't feel all that social either.

I love this format, don't get me wrong, but more and more I feel like a man without a country. Too cutthroat to die in this world, too filthily casual to live in legacy.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-22 3:51 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-02 2:49 am
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Location: Connecticut
kirkusjones wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
True, but other formats don't provide grounds for that toxicity within their philosophy. They fix or attempt to fix their problems with new rules, regulations, or ban list additions. Conversely, this format solves its problems by holding the player culpable for being too win-oriented, and this indirectly implies either a vindication of toxic attitudes towards those win-oriented players or a lack of concern for the consequences of such attitudes. This, I think, is the biggest price to pay for being casual-only.


Well said. I came to EDH after playing Legacy pretty consistently for five or six years. I moved, went to grad school and didn't have time really to search out the pockets of Legacy here in Denver. I'd also sold a lot of my legacy stuff (not that I had all that much to begin with) to subsidize some of the moving costs. EDH seemed to me a way to recapture the spirit of the janky, fun decks I built and played in high school (I had a shuffle deck with psychogenic probe and soldier of fortune and a god awful mortal combat deck that used Iname, Death Aspect to dump spirits into my graveyard) but also draw on a wider cardpool to play synergistic, powerful decks with the legacy stuff I still had left. Brewing decks is one of my favorite things to do and I loved the variety of directions that having access to the massive cardpool (especially all those busted toys I never got to tinker with in legacy) that the format allowed. It seemed like the perfect place for creativity and competition.

But this feeling has changed over the years, it could be that this is because this website is the primary place I come to for EDH discussion and my perspective on deck building and game play is very different than the vocal majority here, so I could just be in the wrong place, but I'm not so sure. I stopped in at a new game store a couple of months ago to play some EDH and found myself holding back a winning hand because of the stigma of being deemed a cutthroat in the face of unknown players because of the attitudes about the social contract and "player responsibility". It felt wrong and devalued my experience because it became less about the game and more about management of everyone's expectations. I don't want the game to be over on turn 3 or 4 by any means, but having to pull punches because I'm afraid of being dismissed as a try-hard or my deck is just a pile of good stuff doesn't feel all that social either.

I love this format, don't get me wrong, but more and more I feel like a man without a country. Too cutthroat to die in this world, too filthily casual to live in legacy.


Seems you're looking for "75% players". They're not going to waste your time with 100 card standard draft-pool decks they scrounged up from FNMs, but aren't going to Teferi lock you on turn 4 either. They exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-22 4:00 am 
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kirkusjones wrote:
But this feeling has changed over the years, it could be that this is because this website is the primary place I come to for EDH discussion and my perspective on deck building and game play is very different than the vocal majority here, so I could just be in the wrong place, but I'm not so sure. I stopped in at a new game store a couple of months ago to play some EDH and found myself holding back a winning hand because of the stigma of being deemed a cutthroat in the face of unknown players because of the attitudes about the social contract and "player responsibility". It felt wrong and devalued my experience because it became less about the game and more about management of everyone's expectations. I don't want the game to be over on turn 3 or 4 by any means, but having to pull punches because I'm afraid of being dismissed as a try-hard or my deck is just a pile of good stuff doesn't feel all that social either.

It's context dependent, but the two things I've bolded actually go against the social contract and player responsibility. Sheldon's most famous quote about the format is to "build casually, play competitively". If you manage to pull a winning hand, play it. For all you know someone has a Force of Will or a Constant Mists or whatever to stop you. And if they don't, great, you win that game and you can move on to the next. If you feel that your win was "cheap" or "try-hard", that's something to visit in the deckbuilding process. The way I like to put it: never include a card in your deck if winning because of that card makes you feel bad.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-22 8:51 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
niheloim wrote:
What similar cards does Panoptic Mirror point to? Does Tinker tell me not to play Reshape? What card on the ban list tells me that Hermit Druid might be problematic?

To play full devil's advocate...

Panoptic Mirror points to cards like DEN that can too easily turn into value-durdling instead of actually playing the game.

There are two types of cards that are similar to Tinker in a negative way: powerful effects that are way undercosted, and tutors in general.

Hermit Druid's best comparison would probably be Tinker to be honest as it has a lot of the same problems. And that's part of the reason Tinker is banned while Druid isn't: Tinker's problems persist no matter what deck you put it in, whereas it is possible to build a deck where Hermit Druid is both useful and fair.

I'm totally with you... I just don't think a lot of new players are going to recognize that Panoptic Mirror is still stupid without Extra turns and compare that value to DEN.

I'm sure this is the hope and intent of the ban list though.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-23 12:13 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
It's context dependent, but the two things I've bolded actually go against the social contract and player responsibility. Sheldon's most famous quote about the format is to "build casually, play competitively". If you manage to pull a winning hand, play it. For all you know someone has a Force of Will or a Constant Mists or whatever to stop you. And if they don't, great, you win that game and you can move on to the next. If you feel that your win was "cheap" or "try-hard", that's something to visit in the deckbuilding process. The way I like to put it: never include a card in your deck if winning because of that card makes you feel bad.


Some context: I was playing monogreen Selvala, it was maybe 8-10 turns into the game and my hand, without tutors, was Ulamog the Ceaseless Hunger, Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Phyrexian Dreadnought and some other random stuff. Selvala was in play with Rhonas and some other green fatties. That hand would have ended the game, but I hesitated on playing it. That's not something I've ever consciously done. I don't regret the Eldrazi, in fact, I cut Vorinclex during the deckbuilding process because I don't like playing with or against him. It was a weird experience and I chalk it up to my interpretations of what is considered anti-social from the perspectives of some frequent posters (I don't have anyone particular in mind, honestly) on this site.

Next time I'll just go for it and if I get stink faced or arch-enemy'd by the table, then I know I either need to play a more casual deck or find a more competitive table and concern myself more with what is actually in front of me at the LGS and not what I read on the internets. I appreciate the debate and discussion on this site a lot, but I think it's important to remind myself that none of us individually (myself very much included) speak for/define every player experience in the format on a global level.

Yes, I know the RC speaks for the format and helps shape player experience, but they are a committee, not a single individual, unless there's some sort of Literal Five-Headed Dragon Hiram McDaniels thing going on, which is kind of entertaining to picture.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-01 6:12 am 
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niheloim wrote:
I was thinking... we dismiss the idea of “fixing” the banlist pretty easily, but is there merit in the notion of a secondary? Not so much a banlist, as an official “tread carefully” list that groups could point to in order to give weight to their housebans?


Pretty sure, that's what the footnote on the banlist insinuates that it is.

Quote:
These cards should not be played without prior agreement from the other players in the game, and may steer your playgroup to avoid other, similar cards.


EDH isn't a tourney format, the enforcement, and punishment; for violating the banlist and other house rules without prior agreement is usually more in line with "we wouldn't like to play with you." I feel as though, we (as probably experienced grinders for the most part-) over-analyze the banlist concept; because in competitive Magic, we look to the banlist for cards that behave similarly, to substitute what is banned- but in EDH, we're supposed to avoid doing what the cards on the banlist do more specific to the context of how they can ruin a perfectly enjoyable game.

EX: Time Vault- Don't build to do Beacon of Tomorrows loops; unless the game is so advanced that demonstrating the power simply allows the game to end.

Gifts Ungiven- Probably shouldn't be playing Intuition if your playgroup isn't prepared to handle combo vs. combo-breaker meta

Leovold, Emissary of Trest- Resource denial has to be used tastefully. If your General is Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, or Derevi, Empyrial Tactician- maybe tutoring for, and playing Winter Orb and Orb of Dreams is going to make your playgroup, just not want to play with you (we used to joke at an LGS about players who "Win because nobody will play with them".) There are ways of using artifacts like WO and Teferi's Puzzle Box, that probably won't make the table never sit down with you again (with that in mind, however- I've only ever seen Knowledge Pool not tilt a table through a demonstrated Teferi lock at a table of advanced players.)

Those guidelines are pretty rudimentary to upholding fun, engaging sessions that don't become migraines- and encourage future sessions.

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