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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-05 11:34 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:

I'm not sure how to begin to respond to that. Do you think I don't believe that, that I'm just typing out these words 'cause it's fun? That's kind of an insulting line of question to respond to someone with.

My locale is dominated by enchantment-based control decks that wind up shutting down the game through lack of ability to do anything, and enchantment-based chaos decks that wind up shutting down the game via lack of ability to make meaningful decisions. I'm not sure how to resolve it, but yes I've tried.

I've written more about it here.

My experience here since writing that though is that the majority of users here have perfectly functional playgroups and dismiss the issues other raise because they don't experience those issues themselves, and can't imagine them actually happening and not being fixable, which is pretty unfortunate for me since it limits the amount of assistance I can get in resolving that situation. But I can suggest the format leaders and experts can provide advice for locales experiencing degenerate play, and how to avoid and recover from it, and how to fulfil the format's philosophy.

Woah- definitely not my intention, friend!

What I was getting at, is that we tend to be hyperbolic in these discussions as a mode of articulating ourselves; not that your feelings on the matter aren't genuine or informed. Rather, if you're having a bad experience, I'm much more interested in understanding how you're experiencing the game, because I would very-much-so like to understand how you reached the conclusion of an expanded philosophy document!

Anecdotally, speaking- My frequent groups are healthy, because we all know what we like, and how to disassemble and hate out any strategy we view as oppressive- but, that comes from having set ground rules, and developed an internal lack-of-hesitation for constructive criticism. It sounds like your own conditions are vastly different.

If the control decks in your deck are oppressive, you may have to get a little more brutal about your particularly proactive decks. The most miserable Draw-Go decks don't thrive in many playgroups because those nutty combo decks- and well tuned aggression exist. Is this where you feel like a philosophy document should begin? About the nature of picking roles?

If that's the case- one small suggestion is to build decks within a playgroup in distinct cycles (color combinations, themes, etc.) Often, we build more towards the powerful things we have, than making a deck the strongest version of what it is- and then scaling it appropriately for exciting play. Rather- EDH is rooted in themes (such as the Generals themselves.) It would seem that some members of your group might not have tuned in yet to the idea that EDH is a very social game, and things like themes are often more important than playing 100 of the best cards you could find in the same color identity. I recently taught a friend to build EDH decks by imagining them as a tarot deck that you assemble and disassemble to tell stories with your friend's own tarot decks. Idk if that helps- but I hope it's in the right direction, or that you can further articulate on it.


Thanks for explaining your part. I get you a bit better now.

A large part of how I reached that conclusion is from my operation in the tabletop RPG sphere -- the one with Dungeons & Dragons, though I play different games and not that one. Tabletop RPGs have a lot in common with what EDH aims to be: they're fundamentally a social experience where we're sharing ourselves creatively while working together to make fun memorable experiences that we want to see more of. I'm also an active long-term member of this Q&A site which fields a lot of gameplay questions, but also a lot of social questions from people experiencing a serious social breakdown in their games, or just being kind of unhappy with how things are going. They come to us because they're not sure what they can do about it. (That link is sorted to bring the most-voted-upon ones to the top.)

Most of our answers come down to some variant of "talk about it with them" and/or "leave and find another group." But we also talk at considerable length, in each specific situation, how to resolve that specific situation. We can largely only do that because of core philosophical documents people have come up with over time to identify and handle serious social issues causing misery, game breakdown, or even social breakdown. Those include identifying something called My Guy Syndrome (wherein someone does unfun things in the game but feels like they have no choice in the matter) and its resolution (essentially, to remember you always have a choice in the matter) plus an article about Making The Tough Decisions which conveys how players can have their characters act consistently both with the character itself and with what will produce the most fun for everyone, the player of that character included. We have things like The Same Page Tool which, in the guise of a survey, is actually a way to get people talking about their expectations and desires for a game. We have other tools as well, and we talk at length about applying principles that generate good games and fun times, and about avoiding factors that generate unhappiness and resentment. So to speak, we can only give the advice we do because of a wealth of social knowledge that's built up in our hobby. We're standing in the shoulders of giants here.

In EDH I'm not aware of any such resources and I've never seen any linked. There's no Same Page Tool for MTG or EDH that I've seen, or stuff like Making The Tough Decisions not just telling people what they should aim for but, in depth, how to achieve that not only in the big picture but moment to moment. I think that's a big missing in a socially-oriented format. But there's no shame in that — EDH has only been around for what, 10-15 years. It took us longer than that in tabletop RPGs to start assembling this body of advice, before then people were still figuring out that "if you have a social disagreement, resolve it by killing someone's character and making threats" is bad advice that breeds mistrust and resentment in a social group. (But the fact some of the industry leaders are still giving advice like that nowadays makes our work cut out for us.)

Anyway. Social resource documents providing big-picture and more tightly focused advice on achieving healthy gameplay. We would benefit hugely from stuff like that, it's critical to resolving social issues in tabletop RPGs, it would be immensely helpful here too.

Here there's advice of "have you tried talking about it?" too, but I've never seen much deep advice, or resources, on how to do that. From my time in that RPG Q&A site, I know "how to do that" is usually 90% of the advice and experience-sharing that's needed. If there was something like that which has been around for a while and is super useful I would imagine it ought to be getting linked a lot, at the very least here in the forum that's the heart of the format, but it's conspicuously absent.

~~~

My friend group back in Australia was reasonably healthy, though we managed pretty well and could resolve issues. London seems to have a much looser, larger, widespread EDH community -- it's a few dozen people who meet up in any of a few different places (pubs, the two MTG game stores we've got [one of which is also a pub], someone's house sometimes, etc). We're all connected, but it's harder to establish those formal organised groups like I could do with a closer smaller group of friends. Maybe only a third or a quarter are engaging in the chaosy/controlly decks, but it only takes one or two in a game, and probability-wise a third is going to get us that. Or it's the third or quarter of the people who head to one of the places I can regularly reach, I'm not sure. Or it's not even that, and I just happen to sit down with one of these folks playing one of these decks almost every game when I actually head out there.

(Man I gotta switch forum theme. I can't see half the links I left in this post on the default one.)

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-21 1:26 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
So I spoke earlier about a point system that my LGS uses. Here is an example of what points or penalties we can earn in a particular game:

Spend over 10 minutes taking a single turn (-2 points per extra minute rounded up)
Lose the Game (2 points)
Execute an infinite/potentially infinite combo. (You win no points this game)
Eliminating a player prior to their 5th turn. (-4 points per player)
Be the instigator of wrecking one or more players' mana bases. (-2 points)
Take 3 turns in a row (-2 points)
Take 4 or more turns in a row (-1 point per extra turn)

Finish the game without playing your commander unless you couldn't (-1 point per commander)
Control two creatures with total power equaling exactly 21. (1 point)
Cause 3 or more triggered abilities to enter the stack at the same time. (1 point)
Control a card on the battlefield and/or stack from each set of any block (1 point)
Survive after being attacked for lethal damage 3 different times (1 point)
First player to control two functionally identical non-token creatures with different names (1 point)
First player to cause an opponent's life total to decrease (1 point)
Draw 10 or more cards in one turn (1 point)
Eliminate a player with commander damage (1 point per player)
Intentionally cause an opponent to gain 10 or more life in one shot (1 point)
Gain control of a permanent you own from another player (1 point)
Eliminate an opponent during another opponent's turn (1 point)
Have the lowest life total, which must be lower than 10, when the first player is killed (1 point)
Equip a creature with 4 or more equipments (1 point)
Save an opponent from taking lethal damage (1 point per opponent)
Control 1 or more permanents owned by each player that started the game (1 point)
Control at least one creature with 10 or more +1/+1 counters on them (1 point)
Deal 12 or more damage to yourself in one turn (2 points)
Cast your commander when total cost is 15 or more (3 points)
Be the player with the highest life total, not counting lethal damage, when they died (1 point)

The first set of points is in every game. The rest are randomized and I didn't include all the potential possibilities, but it's highly open to customization. In my LGS, the person with the most points across 3 games earns a separate grand prize at the end of the night. The winner of each game wins a pack regardless of points.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-21 10:48 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Dragon
Thanks for that. :) My own group has been speaking about starting up a league, though I'm not sure if it's materialising yet.

I've got an update on the issues I was bringing up above. I managed to bring up the topic with the London EDH crowd and it went well.

About a month and a half ago I found out we have a large chat everyone tries to gather in (and invite others to), so that we know what's happening where & when. A couple of weeks ago I picked a time in the afternoon when things were quiet, but people were around, but also not yet busy gaming.

I asked them if it would be OK to talk about our meta for a bit, got messages of sure go ahead. I told people I was experiencing problems with some deck archetypes and wanted to know if other people felt those archetypes were common. Then I described the decks I was experiencing: enchantment-based shutdown, and enchantment-based chaos, and decks that wall up and do nothing interactive until announcing a few turns in they've won because they drew their combo. I said I'd been sitting down with at least one of those almost every time I visited to play, and wanted to know if it was just me or if those were actually very common in our meta.

(If they were common, we could move on to discuss how to address it, I would've linked Uktabi Kong's post, and etc. Thankfully however...)

The general response was very compassionate. People said that yes, those decks definitely exist, and there's a few of them, but they aren't very common. I volunteered it might have just been bad luck of seating, and they said that was probably the case. (This is good, honestly. It's a relief if it's just me. It means the problem doesn't exist broadly, and if others are having no trouble with these kinds of decks, that means there's going to be a goodly number of tables that won't have them.) They also generally responded that these kinds of problem decks were more common at one particular venue -- the one venue I was regularly attending! (A FLGS in South London.)

We also talked a bit about those types of decks and the issues we experienced playing against them. It was a relief to find others had similar issues to what I've been experiencing and feeling.

I feel very good having had that conversation with the London group, and it feels great to finally have broached the topic and gotten some perspective on the situation that wasn't just my own. It was really helpful to get a more balanced view that it's not so much of a problem everywhere. They provided some really valuable affirmation for me, and I feel like if we do encounter broad meta problems then we have a platform on which I can discuss things with the broader crowd to work something out. I'll work MTG back into my schedule, and I'll be joining these groups when they head out to other, different venues, like joining some of the pub meetups rather than that FLGS's meetups.

I think going in asking for peoples' perspective on those decks and their frequency was a very good idea and would recommend the same of others trying to broach this topic: broach it by describing the problem you're seeking, and ask about how others are seeking the problem and its scale/frequency. Then if it's generally agreed to be a large-scale problem, there's a platform on which to talk about how to resolve it; if it isn't agreed to be large-scale or a problem you can share your own perspective and ask for advice about what you should do about it yourself.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 5:52 am 

Joined: 2017-Dec-23 4:51 am
Age: Wyvern
Well, in some brazillian MTG groups I've seen people talking about EDH games that are defined by Turn 6, complaining about some generals to be too ineffective in the places where those people play (like Gishath and, hey, he's one of my generals LOL), etc. I think that problem arises from two main sources: 1) people that think EDH is another kind of competitive format and want to make their decks Legacy-like; 2) people that have a limited comprehension of their own possibilities on stopping that kind of decks.

I can't imagine having fun playing EDH with a buch of people that want to combo and win by turn 6, but I make my own decks as impredictable as possible to be capable of striking those bastards back. That's the fun of the format, right? Using as much imagination as possible in your deckbuilding. But if the players on your LGS or other playspots are netdecking or playing "stapple-EDH" games, well, I'm sorry for them. Before my best EDH deck arived in my actual playgroup - "Tajic and the Immortals" - people barely knew that a card named Sunforger ever existed. They didn't knew either that a Boros deck could counterspell, bring back the dead and retrieve all his answers back from the graveyard if he really wants it. Well, now they know, and my friends have been encouraged to make their decks as roguish as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 12:02 pm 
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Age: Drake
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I figure it's not too late to leave a reply.

The problem isn't that the combo cards are legal. The problem is that combo decks have access to efficient tutors. Those decks are able to execute their combos before most players have the resources to disrupt them. It gets even worse when the combo players happen to draw their fast mana.

On the subject of aggro, the cards of that archetype just doesn't transition well to multiplayer games. Wizards needs to print more aggressive multiplayer cards for that archetype to be viable in Commander. Coincidentally, Wizards could also print cards that hurt combo in Multiplayer. However, I doubt Wizards is going to give us either. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-27 2:20 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Well they recently gave us melee and myriad. Obviously they attempt to. If they continue with the undaunted mechanic there could be aggro beaters with that mechanic, or dudes that make bodies/clones based on number of opponents.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 1:13 am 
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MatthewB wrote:
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I figure it's not too late to leave a reply.

The problem isn't that the combo cards are legal. The problem is that combo decks have access to efficient tutors. Those decks are able to execute their combos before most players have the resources to disrupt them. It gets even worse when the combo players happen to draw their fast mana.



I disagree. Real casual players don't use tutors as an excuse to blow out a game in two turns, they use them to find fun cards and set up a board that lasts for the long haul of a big game. Where casual players do fail is in sticking hard locks, infinite turns, kiki/zealous, mike/trike, deadeye/palinchron or some other ubiquitous 2 card combo in their decks as a "backup wincon" and fail at self awareness when they spend a single 20 minute turn digging for their "backup" every single game because they have failed to create a deck that can do anything else "because I won't avoid running good cards when they're not banned".

Competitively, yes tutors and fast mana are borked as hell, but that's because the entire point is to win as fast as possible and those cards make winning fast easy. However, having played at a competitive table with a competitive deck I can tell you it is 100% a much better gaming environment because everyone knows the score and has built their decks accordingly, no one feels outclassed or left behind.

Casual players on the other hand only tutor or ramp into combo/locks because they have no self control and never have, they consistently fail at self regulation because they feel like they are in a constant arms race. The sooner the RC realizes that the world outside of their tiny little bubble is a much different place and that casuals need their toys taken away the better.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 3:22 am 
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Gath Immortal wrote:
Casual players on the other hand only tutor or ramp into combo/locks because they have no self control and never have, they consistently fail at self regulation because they feel like they are in a constant arms race. The sooner the RC realizes that the world outside of their tiny little bubble is a much different place and that casuals need their toys taken away the better.


The RC did realize that- but they also realized that the "Casual/Competitive Spectrum" isn't a consequence of casual gaming coming from inexperience in competitive settings. Casual magic, is not the same as scrub Magic, and EDH's ruleset is bent to give the most benefit to groups who use the casual setting to escape the usual trappings of the competitive environment under the mantra "Build casually, play competitively."

This actualizes particularly well in play, since experienced players will often grind games of EDH to best understand, simplify, and utilize their favorite strategy relative to their commander choice- and in the company of players who might be less experienced- make adjustments to their builds to "put on the weights". Playing with weights, allows you to demonstrate to a newer player how to effectively utilize the tools available, without discouraging them from playing at all- because they can't see past the card-quality barrier.

Simply put- the dismissive form of "casual" to otherwise be a synonym for "scrub" is wholly mistaken in the context of EDH; where many of us are trying to enrich the learning experience that MtG has to offer with our friends who haven't had the typical grinder experiences- but are nonetheless capable of the learning the principals of high level play, given the time and environment (an environment with a push toward high level play, but a level of forgiveness for players who are struggling- simply out of understanding for misplays and poor choices occurring at EVERY level of play. If that seems difficult to understand, there's a pretty good stockpile of funny stories about Jon Finkel, Kai Budde, Andrew Cuneo, LSV, Pat Chapin etcetc. making disasterous blunders at the highest level of play that seem rather basic. The harder you grind tournaments, the more you learn "Magic is hard, get over it", and imparting that onto new players is paramount to creating the right environment to help them climb the hill.)

TL;DR: The RC expects people with grinder experience to LEAD BY EXAMPLE

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 6:28 am 
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Age: Dragon
Mr Degradation wrote:
Gath Immortal wrote:
Casual players on the other hand only tutor or ramp into combo/locks because they have no self control and never have, they consistently fail at self regulation because they feel like they are in a constant arms race. The sooner the RC realizes that the world outside of their tiny little bubble is a much different place and that casuals need their toys taken away the better.


The RC did realize that- but they also realized that the "Casual/Competitive Spectrum" isn't a consequence of casual gaming coming from inexperience in competitive settings. Casual magic, is not the same as scrub Magic, and EDH's ruleset is bent to give the most benefit to groups who use the casual setting to escape the usual trappings of the competitive environment under the mantra "Build casually, play competitively."

This actualizes particularly well in play, since experienced players will often grind games of EDH to best understand, simplify, and utilize their favorite strategy relative to their commander choice- and in the company of players who might be less experienced- make adjustments to their builds to "put on the weights". Playing with weights, allows you to demonstrate to a newer player how to effectively utilize the tools available, without discouraging them from playing at all- because they can't see past the card-quality barrier.

Simply put- the dismissive form of "casual" to otherwise be a synonym for "scrub" is wholly mistaken in the context of EDH; where many of us are trying to enrich the learning experience that MtG has to offer with our friends who haven't had the typical grinder experiences- but are nonetheless capable of the learning the principals of high level play, given the time and environment (an environment with a push toward high level play, but a level of forgiveness for players who are struggling- simply out of understanding for misplays and poor choices occurring at EVERY level of play. If that seems difficult to understand, there's a pretty good stockpile of funny stories about Jon Finkel, Kai Budde, Andrew Cuneo, LSV, Pat Chapin etcetc. making disasterous blunders at the highest level of play that seem rather basic. The harder you grind tournaments, the more you learn "Magic is hard, get over it", and imparting that onto new players is paramount to creating the right environment to help them climb the hill.)

TL;DR: The RC expects people with grinder experience to LEAD BY EXAMPLE


I wasn't using casual a a derogatory term, hell that last paragraph is more self referential than anything. It's the same process I went through in my first few years of playing commander, and the same process I come back too every couple years when I get sick of trying to "lead by example" because it never works.

I've been playing this format since before zendikar came out. That's over nine. fucking. years. No matter what new sets come out the loop is always the same and has involved essentially the same cards since innistrad block: break everything, get bored/feel guilty, play fair, get dumped on, get frustrated with the game, burn out on EDH and stop playing, come back and go back to breaking everything, repeat.

Playing with restrictions doesn't really matter when everyone's restrictions are different all the time and people get pissed off at each other for not having the same set of standards, then get pissed at the RC for not being involved enough. And the thing is, none of this comes from play mistakes or not understanding the game, if anything it comes from understanding the game too well.

People don't give up on EDH after making repeated mistakes, they learn. People give up on EDH when they "lead by example" and still repeatedly run into the same 10% of the card pool in every deck, get smashed by douchebags with MLD/Stax or combo'd out in less time than it takes to shuffle, or simply harbor resentment towards regulars who only play obnoxious decks like norin or nazi and a half tails or play decks in an obnoxious way who in turn get pissed that you're pissed at them and can't understand why even after they've previously been pissed at someone else for doing the same thing.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 8:12 am 
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Gath Immortal wrote:
I disagree. Real casual players don't use tutors as an excuse to blow out a game in two turns, they use them to find fun cards and set up a board that lasts for the long haul of a big game. Where casual players do fail is in sticking hard locks, infinite turns, kiki/zealous, mike/trike, deadeye/palinchron or some other ubiquitous 2 card combo in their decks as a "backup wincon" and fail at self awareness when they spend a single 20 minute turn digging for their "backup" every single game because they have failed to create a deck that can do anything else "because I won't avoid running good cards when they're not banned".

Competitively, yes tutors and fast mana are borked as hell, but that's because the entire point is to win as fast as possible and those cards make winning fast easy. However, having played at a competitive table with a competitive deck I can tell you it is 100% a much better gaming environment because everyone knows the score and has built their decks accordingly, no one feels outclassed or left behind.

Casual players on the other hand only tutor or ramp into combo/locks because they have no self control and never have, they consistently fail at self regulation because they feel like they are in a constant arms race. The sooner the RC realizes that the world outside of their tiny little bubble is a much different place and that casuals need their toys taken away the better.


When I read your first and third paragraph it seemed to me like casuals are using their tutors and resources to set up infinite combos. I do get what you mean when you talk about the whole "backup" plan. Lots of casuals are building and playing very bad combo decks.

Sitting down at a table to play with someone who has similar goals is definitely more enjoyable. However, I don't enjoy playing competitively in a format that wasn't designed to be played competitively. I will feel outclassed or left behind if my opponents open with fast mana or early tutors.

I don't like combos, but I think they're manageable when you reduce the power level of fast mana and tutors.


Last edited by MatthewB on 2018-Apr-29 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 8:29 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Gath Immortal wrote:
Casual players on the other hand only tutor or ramp into combo/locks because they have no self control and never have, they consistently fail at self regulation because they feel like they are in a constant arms race. The sooner the RC realizes that the world outside of their tiny little bubble is a much different place and that casuals need their toys taken away the better.
I have seen both first hand, and pretending you are the 'real' EDH and the RC lives in a bubble continues to deeply bias your posts against the truth. Both exist, and on a wide spectrum. No rules set can cater to everyone.

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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-30 5:23 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Where are you from Gath? I wanna come play with you and your group.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Jul-04 4:47 am 

Joined: 2012-Oct-14 7:51 pm
Age: Wyvern
Here is how my son and I do it.... when we have new players sit down at the table, we carefully inform them that while we do have combos, we don't play to combo out and kill everyone. That we don't play mass landkill. That we don't play infinite loops of any kind.

Once that's out of the way, the other players inevitably respond by either bowing out or by locating their 'fun' deck or just nodding and shuffling.

We belonged to a group whose leader and organizer routinely fed his own ego by combo-ing out at least once each week and killing everyone else. He banned Cyclonic Rift, mostly because it upset his combos. No one else said a word about it and no one did anything to stop him.

We did, and when we did he responded in two ways. First, he cold-decked the entire group with Rafiq of the Many. I mean, no one cut his deck and the first 25 cards were as perfectly timed as you could imagine. When we still went for his throat to stop him from combo-killing, he had us ejected from the group.

After that cold-decking, we were going to quit anyway. So no great loss.

We sat down one night about a year ago after getting bounced from that group and asked ourselves, 'why are we playing? What are we looking to gain from the experience?' And the answer, for us, was seeing our own deck in play, seeing other decks and getting new ideas, and just playing the game. Does killing everyone by Turn Five give us any of that?

Well, the answer was 'no' and accordingly, we began building decks of varying strengths and efficiency. We've also decided that we will choose the players with whom we associate - that is, elect to leave the Kid Combo types behind, rather than try to beat them at their own game. It can be done - we did it - but the whole thing goes meta very quickly as egos become involved. Those kinds of people - who bring the shotgun to the pillow fight and think it's fun - they'll grow up or they won't. Competitive? Go for it - at a tournament or something, or with folks who are prepared to play the same kind of game.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-03 4:20 am 

Joined: 2016-Jun-29 3:47 pm
Age: Hatchling
EDH isn’t a turn-sideways format. It just isn’t. And even the decks that do want to turn sideways utilize some synergistic method other than casting one or two creatures a turn and whitling down an opponent’s life total. You are trying to stay alive and keep a board presence among several players and if you don’t combo off then you’re facing your own death from an eldrazi horde cheated in via mayael and elvish piper. Combo isn’t the problem, the format is solved. And if you take away fast mana, then all you have left is green and black.

We’re playing for the love of the game now, so find people who can tolerate everyone else’s shenanigans and let’s ride this baby into the sunset.


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 Post subject: Re: Edh is dead - fix your banlist or make a secondary one
AgePosted: 2018-Oct-03 6:21 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Rockinroland wrote:
EDH isn’t a turn-sideways format. It just isn’t.

Also Rockinroland wrote:
if you don’t combo off then you’re facing your own death from an eldrazi horde

Ummm.... you realise you're flat-out contradicting yourself here?

Sure, turning dudes sideways is less good when your dudes are x/1's and your opponents have a total combined life total of 120, but you can definitely win by turning a lot of dudes sideways (See: Elves/Goblins/Soldiers) or turning big dudes sideways (like Mayael decks)

EDH is not a combo-centric format. It's not an anything-centric format, which is why it's so damn good.

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