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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-29 3:13 am 
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Joined: 2012-Nov-27 4:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Midgard
There's a card called Singing Tree, and it's not a Treefolk.

It's actually pretty easy to build reasonably positioned decks without breaking $50 (on the cards themselves). I've built a Marath deck where only about 7 cards cost more than $2 individually, and it brawls surprisingly well.

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-29 7:59 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
My Win% tends to be higher then 1/X, and a lot of locals though it was because I own expensive old cards.

Well... at the present time, my most powerful and highest win % decks is Karametra. You can buy the entire deck for $150. Replacing two cards that are completely unnecessary (Savannah and Archangel of Thune) brings it well under $100.

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My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-29 9:23 am 

Joined: 2011-Feb-15 7:09 am
Age: Drake
spacemonaut wrote:
I live in London, and I play at a local gaming store with a dozen or two people playing Commander most days and varying people each time. I also play at a local commander group of a couple of dozen members that has biweekly meetups. I've never yet seen anyone play a card from the reserved list,

I live in Coventry, there's a few local metagames, some game shops and the Warwick university. I see greater variance than you do, there are a lot of people with powered up decks, and some reserved cards around like Phelddagrif and wheel of fortune.
The other thing we get is some amount of proxies being tolerated, and that's a result or high prices. I dislike bad proxies as it's often hard to recognise them on cluttered board states, and I dislike good proxies even more for obvious reasons.
So there's a willingness to use these cards, and I think we'd see more with easier access.


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-29 1:15 pm 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
Does this work both ways? Is there chance, however small, that you remove PBtE?


Well, anything's possible. I'm not sure we really need the Moxes running around.


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-29 3:06 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
mika wrote:
Why not move the game out from a small card list that can easy buyout by few person.

Because the game is not "in a small card list". Before you set about trying to get all reserved list cards banned, you might like to exactly what that means. Every card on this list would be banned:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/official-reprint-policy-2010-03-10

I put it to you that nothing on the reserved list is needed to play commander. There is no strategy or play style I can think of that only works with cards on the reserve list. I would more readily unban all reserved cards than ban them all.

If you want to play Pheldegriff then you have to pay up a little, but if you want to play a hugs deck you can play The Two kings card from the precons, or Zeedru.

Cards are only a "barrier to entry" if they stop you from getting into the format.

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-29 5:25 pm 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Well, there's homarid tribal...

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 Post subject: Wow, kinda gettin' harsh on a new casual player guys.
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-30 12:42 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
Marit Lage, ya kinda crossed the line into personal attacks for a minute there : p

We've all gone through the phase in magic where we thought "not everybody can afford to play the same cards, so they aren't fair!" There is no need to be aggressive in asserting that is not the case, people mature out of this understanding over time.

Magic: The Gathering at it's heart has a few negative-feeling design elements. The relevant one here is something I'll call Fiscally/Financially Limited Deck Construction. Part of the appeal of the game is having a collection that you slowly add to, increasing your options and shaping your deck creation based on the cards you own. When Richard Garfield designed the game he expected people to buy a handful of packs and get another on occasion. People warped this design by spending hundreds and later thousands of dollars on a game that should have cost $50 tops, but limited card selection is still part of the game's design.

Banning the reserved list sounds like it would lower the barrier to entry at first, but if you look at the costs on the list you'll see that is not the case. There are cards printed in the most recent set that cost more than cards on the reserved list. Kaalia of the Vast and Atraxa, Praetors' Voice both cost more than Phelddagrif and were printed recently(ish).

Mika, it sounds like you have much more pronounced price spikes in your region due to local card availability/international shipping. It is unfortunate, but the Ban List isn't there to enforce budget, it is there to improve the playing experience.

Let's look at a hypothetical here. What if Angus Mackenzie was a $0.50 card? When I look at Angus Mackenzie I think "that looks stupid and janky, if they put this as a commander in a precon people would rage at how bad it is". Is there any card on the Reserve List that you can't enjoy the game if it is played against you, but you would enjoy if you had it as well? Sure original duals are nice, and you'd run them if you had them, but you'll run shocklands and fetches in the same deck anyway, there's a solid case that fetch lands are more powerful than the original duals. Banning cards because some players can't have them limits what players can do. Magic is designed so that players don't all have the same cards and the same decks, it's part of what keeps the game interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-30 6:16 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Does this work both ways? Is there chance, however small, that you remove PBtE?


Well, anything's possible. I'm not sure we really need the Moxes running around.

They probably won't run very far since there's a good chance they'll die as a state based affect when you animate them.

I just want to draw one more card a turn. Is that too much to ask for?


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-30 7:52 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Does this work both ways? Is there chance, however small, that you remove PBtE?

Well, anything's possible. I'm not sure we really need the Moxes running around.
Is PBtE really all that's holding the Moxes on the banlist? I'd think the "Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly" rule would be as/more important for that. (Honestly surprised Sol Ring hasn't been banned on this basis, but since it's been in every Commander deck I can see it being problematic to do so now.) Most other PBtE cards would fall under "Problematic Casual Omnipresence" as well. So PBtE could probably go away without affecting the banlist at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-31 1:28 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Willbender wrote:
Is PBtE really all that's holding the Moxes on the banlist?


It's the biggest one, for sure.

Willbender wrote:
I'd think the "Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly" rule would be as/more important for that. (Honestly surprised Sol Ring hasn't been banned on this basis, but since it's been in every Commander deck I can see it being problematic to do so now.)


As we've said, "too much" is not "one or two". It's more like six. So, Fastbond, Channel, Academy, et al.


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-31 7:48 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I guess I'm just not seeing how they will be viewed as a barrier to entry. At this point you either have them or you don't, and most of them are just a "winmore" card that doesn't make a deck better, just more tuned.

I think that from a warping standpoint adding all 5 moxen will make a deck faster and ruin games, but from a game ruining aspect we are far more likely to see a tuned precon general wreck games than the P9. Decks like Atraxa (and what I'm hearing the new dragon one) are giving EDH players a much stronger perception that you don't need to break the bank to hold your own in this format, and players such as ourselves that have invested a substantial sum of money do more to highlight the barrier to entry with legal cards than the P9 can hope to do.

For me, I feel that the biggest reason to keep these expensive banned cards banned is because if you unbanned them there will be a substantial price jump. And I know that you don't worry about the secondary market, but it does create a feel bad that I'm sure you'd like to avoid when the potential gain isn't worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-31 10:44 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
I guess I'm just not seeing how they will be viewed as a barrier to entry.

The "perceived" part of PBtE is an important word. There is a huge gap between Legacy magic and vintage magic. At the moment the most commonly seen "expensive" cards would be revised duals, sitting at a few hundred dollars each, those cards aren't required but many people tend to think that they are, because they see them in people's decks.

Allow moxen and the people that have them will play them, and while the actual win % increase would likely be small, but the perception of EDH would shift closer to Vintage magic than legacy, the perception that you need vintage cards to play would be more prevalent.

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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-31 1:36 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I get that it's about the perception and not any actual barrier. But Legacy and Vintage are formats that are competitive and headed for optimised decks, in both perception and the reality of Wizards and independent vendors holding tournaments. Conversely, EDH is a casual format, and Wizards helps push that image. So while having the Moxen legal would give the perception that the format is out of reach of mere mortals, the RC and Wizards have been doing a good job of offsetting that image.


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-31 2:31 pm 

Joined: 2011-Aug-18 3:35 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
papa_funk wrote:
Willbender wrote:
I'd think the "Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly" rule would be as/more important for that. (Honestly surprised Sol Ring hasn't been banned on this basis, but since it's been in every Commander deck I can see it being problematic to do so now.)


As we've said, "too much" is not "one or two". It's more like six. So, Fastbond, Channel, Academy, et al.


Rofellos, Selvala...


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 Post subject: Re: Add reserve list on next ban list
AgePosted: 2017-Aug-31 9:51 pm 

Joined: 2015-Jan-14 2:58 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Epsilon wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
As we've said, "too much" is not "one or two". It's more like six. So, Fastbond, Channel, Academy, et al.


Rofellos, Selvala...


Hey! Leave my girl alone, you creep!

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Antis wrote:
I'm seriously suspicious of any card that makes Doubling Season look fair and reasonable.


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