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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-26 1:40 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Carthain wrote:
They fully understood it was a flavor fail -- but they were saying that gameplay trumped flavor in this case. It was an intentional decision.

Of course gameplay trumps flavor... but they wanted to have it both ways. If gameplay were poor for being a legend, then drop the legend. But not changing the name was something independent of gameplay.

THE molten Pinnacle could have been changed and still maintained the flavor of a pretty unique place. Llanowar Wastes does a fine job. So why not, The Molten Pinnacles of Valkut? or Valakut's Molten Pinnacles? Making it plural allows for multiple copies without feeling off.

Intentionally being wrong is worse, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-26 11:46 pm 
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niheloim wrote:
Of course gameplay trumps flavor... but they wanted to have it both ways. If gameplay were poor for being a legend, then drop the legend. But not changing the name was something independent of gameplay.

THE molten Pinnacle could have been changed and still maintained the flavor of a pretty unique place. Llanowar Wastes does a fine job. So why not, The Molten Pinnacles of Valkut? or Valakut's Molten Pinnacles? Making it plural allows for multiple copies without feeling off.

Intentionally being wrong is worse, I think.


At the time, they had abandoned printing Legendary lands *altogether* because of how awful they played. They weren't going to stop printing unique places as lands, they had simply decided that they wouldn't be legendary anymore due to gameplay concerns. When the legend rule changed again in late 2013, that changed and they slowly started printing legendary lands again. So, at the time it made perfect sense to print Valakut as nonlegendary lands, since they considered legendary lands to have gone the way of banding.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-28 10:48 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Huh... Didnt know they'd given up on legendary lands.

Still, seems like they could have flavored things a bit better despite it all. A simple plural makes multiples make sense...

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradel? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-19 6:40 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
cryogen wrote:
specter404 wrote:
There is a reason that they made a new cradle and not a new tolarian academy. Gaea's cradle is fine. It was annoying that fair token decks and high creature count decks couldn't get one cheaply, but this alternative means the budget decks get a cradle 2.0 and the tuned decks get the OG as well.

I think new cradle is a great addition to the format, in fact all of the new flip into lands cards look like fun.

TBF, Tolarian Academy would probably be fine too if it had some sort of restriction as to when you could start using it. IIRC, the issue was that it was creating too much mana too quickly, not just that it created too much mana.


...Ahem...

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-19 9:01 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Cryogen was right, it's totally fine with a reasonable restriction.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-20 1:47 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
I'd be curious about this in Vintage as a one-of. It pitches to FOW, triggering it is not problematic but is a 4-mana Academy worth the payoff? Probably.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-20 2:53 am 
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So when you transform this with 5 treasures you get ten mana? What could possibly go wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-20 7:26 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Cryogen was right

I should really sig this.


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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-20 7:56 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
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cryogen wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Cryogen was right

I should really sig this.


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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-20 11:08 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Note the "one or more creatures" phrasing; you're not flipping this until 4 combats (so probably four turns) after you play it.

Having said that of course it only cares about artifacts you control, not Treasures you control, so a couple of early mana rocks and/or artifact creatures and you can still flip it the turn you play it.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-20 1:08 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Having said that of course it only cares about artifacts you control, not Treasures you control, so a couple of early mana rocks and/or artifact creatures and you can still flip it the turn you play it.
This is the scenario I see it being a possible issue. I don't see any early turns where TA is broken and this isnt, but maybe it slow enough?

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-20 4:22 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
New Tolarian is also not a land on the front, so there are multiple ways to interact with this, unlike Academy which you can't respond to meaningfully.

I think someone who is set out to play as mana mana rocks and do as many broken things as possible will do approximately as well with this as the actual land. You can cast and flip this earlier than turn 5 when you are trying to so the real drawback is waiting a turn for mana and opening up to opponents attacks on your artifacts, your casting, your enchantment (and there's also like 5 pretty good cards that interact with triggers).

With this, a UR artifacts/academy combo player just comboes the next turn they 'play' academy, instead of *the* turn they play academy?

zimagic wrote:
I'd be curious about this in Vintage as a one-of. It pitches to FOW, triggering it is not problematic but is a 4-mana Academy worth the payoff? Probably.

There's aren't any decks that really want this. Grixis Thieves with KeyVault doesn't play enough artifacts or low cmc attackers and is rarely heard from these days.

Paradoxical decks are creatureless and not leaving their mana out on the table for you to prey on with By Force, and if they have 5 artifacts and 4 mana they are casting Outcome.

Workshop of course is colorless.

Both Tezzerator variants and Welder control/combo variants are virtually non-existent right now, but maybe?

I think the issue is that Expedition Map is probably always better for academy. People already don't play Voltaic Key as mana rock with Monoliths/Vault and it seems about as fine for the return rate, no? The big mana decks are not on a lot of creatures and are solely on Drain or Tinker to get their cardsphinx or poisonbot on, respectively. There's not even an Academy Combo deck anymore. There's few decks that want this at 4, even if the payoff is 6 mana. About no one is going to be going to combat for this and you are mostly limited to one bonus artifact per turn.

Someone pointed out on another forum that if can flip it, you have Gifts and Fluster mana, which is definitely lol.

I've given it a lot of thought because i have been mentally brewing a u/r workshop welder breya vaultkey academyslaver with daretti and transmuter. Like for lols, idk that bothering with anything else is better than a Bargain, Paradoxical, or Oath deck featuring Vault Key, and it's definitely not as good as as a regular 8tezz or welder deck which is already not great.


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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-21 3:32 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Viperion wrote:
Note the "one or more creatures" phrasing; you're not flipping this until 4 combats (so probably four turns) after you play it.

...unless you attack multiple players.
.

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 Post subject: Re: Double Gaea's Cradle? Maybe a ban on the old one?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-21 9:01 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
I was skeptical about the multiple players things, but having done a little search of gatherer you are correct, which will be important for me to know at prerelease when we do 2HG :D

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