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 Post subject: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-17 12:25 pm 

Joined: 2017-Sep-17 11:21 am
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Is there any way we can get Frankie peanuts and grimlock allowed to be commanders? They are the least "weird" and unusual cards and I think every one would enjoy playing them... at the very least grimlock should be allowed

And does anyone else feel sword of dungeons and dragons isn't overpowered/strange enough to be not allowed either?


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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-18 2:24 am 
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Those would be house-rules to allow those. I would be incredibly surprised if they ever made that an official rule.

The (previously) more common creature to house-rule in as a commander was the Nephelims. They were frequently house-ruled to be used as commanders, yet they never made any official exception for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-18 6:01 am 
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Also, as mentioned in another thread, Frankie Peanuts can be broken so that he essentially reads "At the beginning of your upkeep target player loses the game."

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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-18 9:05 am 

Joined: 2013-Oct-09 7:02 am
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Also, as mentioned in another thread, Frankie Peanuts can be broken so that he essentially reads "At the beginning of your upkeep target player loses the game."

To be fair, it doesn't say on the card that you lose the game if you don't answer truthfully.


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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-18 12:21 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
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MrCool wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Also, as mentioned in another thread, Frankie Peanuts can be broken so that he essentially reads "At the beginning of your upkeep target player loses the game."

To be fair, it doesn't say on the card that you lose the game if you don't answer truthfully.

Yes is does, in the rules of magic. In the same way that ignoring platinum angel's effect would be against the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-18 12:40 pm 
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Anyone care to enlighten me how Frankie Peanuts can accomplish what is being claimed here?


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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-18 2:14 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jan-25 4:50 pm
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As requested, from the gatherer discussion:
Frankie Peanuts
"Is it true that either this statement is true, or you are not going to concede this turn, but not both?"

If they say yes, then the statement is true, and therefore they are not "not going to concede". If they say no, then the statement is false, and either both or neither condition is true. Since the first condition is false, then the second must also be false.

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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-18 2:57 pm 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Bruticus wrote:
As requested, from the gatherer discussion:
Frankie Peanuts
"Is it true that either this statement is true, or you are not going to concede this turn, but not both?"

If they say yes, then the statement is true, and therefore they are not "not going to concede". If they say no, then the statement is false, and either both or neither condition is true. Since the first condition is false, then the second must also be false.

From the same conversation:

Quote:
What people don't seem to realize is that while the question must be a yes-or-no question, the only restriction on the answer is that it is truthful. This means you can technically answer with something other than Yes or No. So for questions like "is the answer to this question 'NO'?" a valid answer would be Mu (a buddhist term that means that either the question assumes a false premise (have you stopped beating your wife?) or that there is no possible answer (as above), or even that the question must be "un-asked". See Wikipedia for more info).

Similarly for people who are combining this with Paradox Haze to ask 2 questions, then saying stuff like "Will you answer the next question 'Yes'?", the answer "I don't know" is perfectly valid in the same way it would be if you had asked "Will the next card you draw be a land?".


Given that question about conceding the game makes no real statement to apply a truth-value to in that first section- essentially asking "Is this question true?"- a truthful answer could be, "Your question makes no sense to me."

The card is fine I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-19 12:06 am 
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Bruticus wrote:
As requested, from the gatherer discussion:
Frankie Peanuts
"Is it true that either this statement is true, or you are not going to concede this turn, but not both?"

If they say yes, then the statement is true, and therefore they are not "not going to concede". If they say no, then the statement is false, and either both or neither condition is true. Since the first condition is false, then the second must also be false.

Except, if Mindslaver can't make you concede - why would this be able to? (other than silver-bordered world - which is exactly a reason not to allow it.)

Also, Frankie says that you must abide by that answer, if possible, until end of turn.

Are people aware that "this turn" lasts longer than "end of turn"?

So "yep, I fully intend to concede this turn -- during the cleanup step" then once the end step (where EOT stuff triggers) is done and you go into the cleanup step (where 'this turn' effects expire) ... then the card is no longer "binding" you to what you said.

If someone is going to try to wordsmith a win, then they deserve to be rules-lawyered like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-19 2:29 am 
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At niheloim: a yes-no question has a yes/no answer. I don't agree with that guy personally.

At carthain: then just change the question to "Is it true that either this statement is true, or you are not going to concede before my endstep, but not both?"

But through this discussion we reveal why many of these cards can never be legal, they have no errata and have extremely spotty card specific notes through Mark Rosewater. And having to argue about rules that don't exist is silly. If you self impose restrictions on the ability to make it clearer and to work more as intended and everyone agrees, that's the only way i see people being able to use this card, but clearly as a house ruling only.

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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-19 3:41 am 
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Sure you could - but if you're going to bring a silver-bordered card into black-border world, and play it like a spike -- then you should also figure out how the card would be ruled in black-border world -- in which case, it wouldn't allow you to force someone to concede. That's pretty basic and blatant. And we have examples already of cards in black-border world where it could have been possible, but they explicitly denied that ability.

Yeah, if you use it "fairly" like "will you block with <creature> this turn?" -- then he's probably fine, and also probably fun on both sides of the table.

It's people trying to abuse the ambiguity on a card that specifically doesn't have specific rulings on it that are the type of person I would usually try to avoid playing with (or, I'd call them on every single violation they do.)


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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-19 11:27 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Sure you could - but if you're going to bring a silver-bordered card into black-border world, and play it like a spike -- then you should also figure out how the card would be ruled in black-border world -- in which case, it wouldn't allow you to force someone to concede. That's pretty basic and blatant. And we have examples already of cards in black-border world where it could have been possible, but they explicitly denied that ability.


They had to literally write the rules for the mindslaver effect into the rules of magic, since the comp rules are unlikely to be updated to include corner case silver bordered cards we would have to consider the impact of the cards given the current rules if they were added to commander.

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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-19 12:51 pm 

Joined: 2013-Aug-20 4:37 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Boston
Bruticus wrote:
"Is it true that either this statement is true, or you are not going to concede before my endstep, but not both?"

Both "this statement is true" and "[I am] not going to concede" are true statements, so the correct answer to the question is "no." If they try to argue that "this statement" refers to their full question, ask them what triggered ability they have that lets them make a statement rather than asking a fucking question.

(And if they target you again and rephrase it with "this statement" replaced with "this question" the answer is "yes" because questions don't have truth values so only "[I am] not going to concede" is true, but not both.)


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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-19 1:23 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
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JJackson wrote:
Bruticus wrote:
"Is it true that either this statement is true, or you are not going to concede before my endstep, but not both?"

Both "this statement is true" and "[I am] not going to concede" are true statements, so the correct answer to the question is "no." If they try to argue that "this statement" refers to their full question, ask them what triggered ability they have that lets them make a statement rather than asking a fucking question.

(And if they target you again and rephrase it with "this statement" replaced with "this question" the answer is "yes" because questions don't have truth values so only "[I am] not going to concede" is true, but not both.)


After reading all of this discussion, I think my answer would be "I'm not answering that bollocks, and if you try to pull a trick like that with me again, I'm going to ignore it. Do you want to ask me a question about my hand or plans or something instead of trying to force a win, or shall we just move on to the main phase?" :P

If they persist we'll probably need to have a brief talk about shenanigans and not doing ones like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Two special request commanders?
AgePosted: 2017-Sep-19 1:31 pm 
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specter404 wrote:
since the comp rules are unlikely to be updated to include corner case silver bordered cards we would have to consider the impact of the cards given the current rules if they were added to commander.

Why on earth should we tolerate that?

If you're bringing a silver-bordered card into a black-bordered game ... then you should treat it as if it were black bordered, and consider what actual rules would be made around that card.

For example, in silver-world, when naming a colour you can name stuff like Brown or Pink. But if you bring the same card into black-border-world, then they can only name legit magic colours -- same as any other ability that lets you name a colour.


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