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 Post subject: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-19 12:08 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
I read in http://mtgcommander.net/EDH_Root/changelog.php that sideboards are optional, but I red somewhere that now they are not allowed by the oficial rules, I google it and sometimes I get a "quote" saying we can use sideboard and sometimes people say we can't.

In the rules pages I wasnt able to find anything about it, nor permission rule or banning one.

In the changelog I red

Quote:
September 9th, 2009:
Major changes:

Consolidated General-choice rules. League play now an optional rule.
Generals are not immune to the legend.
Changed to new Brittany mulligan rule
Optional sideboarding added to beginning of game procedure


Then I seek if in other part of the document the sideboard is removed and I dont find anything like that

So, can we use a 10 card sideboard?

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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-19 5:13 pm 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
It's an option, not a rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-19 9:30 pm 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Is an option, but It is an option I have right because of the rules?

Let me explain a little better (english is not my natal tongue so I may have dificulties to make my point)

Because EDH is a social game every playgroup can do whatever they want, If I want to play griselbrand and my friends allowed it then there is no problem, is our choice but .. officially Grisel is not allowed so I have not the right to demand they to allow me to play it.

Sensei's divining top is allowed to play, if my friends dislike it they can ask me not to use it but they are not entitile to "force" a ban.

What I want to know if I can go and have a sideboard because rules says is optional and no one can argue against that officialy

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Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 1:27 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
I get your position but I have questions: Why is having a sideboard so important and why are your opponents refusing to let you have one?

The reason for sideboards in Magic are to attack different 1v1 match-ups with cards that are better suited to that particular match-up. Commander is a 1v2 or 1v3 or more format. What cards do you need to sideboard that won't be relevant somewhere in a game? If they are relevant, why are you not including them in your maindeck?

Part of the format is knowing what your deck can do or building it to do something particular. If you know you want a card in your sideboard, maybe you should probably want it in your 99 instead?

That's the game, building an interesting deck and bringing that deck to game night. Not bring that deck and the 20 additional options you could have included if you had known you'd be playing Deck X, Y, & Z.

My opinion: Forget about sideboards, make those hard deck-building choices, update your deck as you play it.

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Scarab God Zombie Horde
Sissay 5c Superfriends
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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 2:00 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
I play a mardu deck, last time in a table of 4 there was a monoblue that just played alone, he controlled us all, we didnt got to resolve abolute nothing useful, and the game ended after more than one hour of nothing doing nothing except for the monoblue player that took turn after turn.

After more than one hour of boring, we concede while we all where in 35+ life

I want to sideboard cards like boil, red elemental blast and pyroblast wich are just dead cards in the main.

I main reverberate as a "counter" but if I am not going against blue Is still relevant

But, this things are not what the topic is about, I still dont know if I can "demand my right of using the optional sideboard" or not

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Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 3:17 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Officially, by default, sideboards are not a thing in Commander.

If you want to use one, you're going to need to get your playgroup to adopt house rules for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 4:49 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Well, thanks for your answer

It is sad because if the sideboards were an oficial optional thing we would have an easier way to do things.

I will never play in the same table with a monoblue player if I cannot sideboard and that may be unfriendly to do, but if we are allowed by the rules to the optional side that is just not an issue.

Thanks again for the answers

_________________
Playing:
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Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 4:55 am 
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Joined: 2009-Jun-02 3:54 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Germany, near Berlin
Given Commander is a Casual format, your sideboard consists of every card you have with you, that is not in the deck or your commander as you start the game.

As for your blue mage... If the other two seem to share your opinion about him/her playing with him/herself, there's a simple sentence you could try: "Okay [insert name], you win and we're playing on for 2nd place now."
That way, your game becomes much more enjoyable (for you three) and your blue mage can revel in his/her victory while waiting an hour or two for your next game. Win-win situation, I guess?

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If your only tool is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Generals:
too many, and always changing... except:

Rakdos, Lord of Riots (Demon Tribal)
Melek, Izzet Paragon (Dragonstorm) -> these must stay because of a house rule


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 5:02 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
Thor_Naadoh wrote:
Given Commander is a Casual format, your sideboard consists of every card you have with you, that is not in the deck or your commander as you start the game.

As for your blue mage... If the other two seem to share your opinion about him/her playing with him/herself, there's a simple sentence you could try: "Okay [insert name], you win and we're playing on for 2nd place now."
That way, your game becomes much more enjoyable (for you three) and your blue mage can revel in his/her victory while waiting an hour or two for your next game. Win-win situation, I guess?


Or we can just sideboard those 3 cards and have a chance of fighting.

I dont dislike counterspells, or combo or other things, I just don't like to spent 1 hour where I am not able to drop more than a land or mana rocks.

I have played with those sideboard cards against monoblue and trust me, it is a very diferent game, is still hard as hell but at least is 'winnable' or just simple more fun because you can actually do something.

I prefer to play against monoblue with sideboard rather than saying the guy, ok you win now is a 3edh game, because if we say that before we start we are just saying 'you cant play with us' so why bother? is better to find another 4th player, and if we w8 for the hour to say ok you win, is still an hour of my life I got bored.

If you play a combo and win is ok by me, if you take an extra turn and win still ok, if you play an infinite extra turn lock combo is still ok by me, but if you take 5-6 or 7 turns in a row not winning is just plain boring

I work, I study in the University and I am a father, I can play EDH only for a couple of hours a month (2-4 max) so I wont be wasting precious playtime like that again.

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Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 6:53 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Boston, MA
Well looking at the cards you are thinking of boarding (Boil, Red Elemental Blast, and Pyroblast) there are a few similar cards that you can run which aren't dead if nobody is playing blue.

Instead of Boil you can run Wake of Destruction. It can hit all Islands versus the blue player, or it can be used to take out a strong non-basic like Maze of Ith.

Instead of Pyroblast and Red Elemental Blast you can run Burnout (you can still target a non-blue instant to "cycle it") and Jaya Ballard, Task Mage (multiple uses if nobody is playing blue).

Grand Abolisher and Conqueror's Flail are both good on their own and are very strong against counter-heavy blue.

However, with the amount of time you actually get to play commander, it seems like the policy of avoiding that player may just be more prudent (or at least avoid him when he is playing that deck).

Unfortunately, the idea of sideboarding is kind of awkward in commander (and outside of a tournament in general because there isn't really the idea of 'presenting' your decks).

If you sit down and start pulling Boil out of the sideboard, what do you do when he sees that and decides to switch decks, then you go, huh, don't want that Boil now and start to take it out, and then he switches back to the blue deck. Outside of the tournament rules, this is very hard to regulate.

Do players not reveal generals until all sideboarding is done? (makes it into an awkward guessing game, or just screws over the guy with only one deck).
Do players reveal generals and then everyone sideboards? (allowing everyone to gang up on one player by hating them out of the game).
Do you not sideboard until the second game? (This assumes you are playing more than one game and with the exact same people and decks).

As far as I know, the only reason sideboards were considered for commander is to make the Burning Wish type cards playable. Non-wish sideboarding for commander is like sideboarding for game 1 of a tournament match... it just doesn't make sense.

As someone who has many decks, I will often change decks if someone is playing a deck that I don't feel like I can do anything against (of course asking first, like "Hey, I don't think I am going to be able to have a fighting chance with this deck when you are playing that one. Is it OK if I switch to something that I think will make for a better game?" -- note that if you use this to switch into a deck that completely hoses theirs you won't get positive reactions to do this again in the future). Not everyone has the resources to field many decks though, so this isn't an option for anyone.

Also, if the guy who is stomping you has multiple decks that are all tuned to higher power levels you might ask to borrow one, or go the other way and offer to lend him a deck that is tuned to a lower level.

_________________
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Rosheen Meanderer: Hydras
Sapling of Colfenor: Toughness > Power
Riku: Pump Spells
Teneb: Life Manipulation
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Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh: Chandras
Ojutai, Soul of Winter: Tap Out Control
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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 7:15 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
I would love to have several EDHs deck, but I have only one completed, until I find more time to play I cannot invest a lot in other decks.

My deck is fine tunned, and in my main I run grand abolisher, Defense grid and even price of glory

But you have to be able to resolve those things, I run boseiju who shelter's all also cavern of souls
Casting my general with a counter-backup (pyroblast) is awesome.

If the blue player runs a reasonable ammount of counters (6-8) is one thing and Ill never side in, but the monoblue plays 16-18, plus recursions, bounces and steal effects.

The game I told you about was really annoying for everyone (except for the blue mage), we actually didnt got to resolve nothing relevant

As for your suggestions, wake of destructions seems nice, I remain unconviced of the speed (sorcery) vs the instant of boil (the 2 extra reds are fine) but I will take it in consideration, burnout seems very good

_________________
Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 7:35 am 

Joined: 2010-Dec-14 4:04 pm
Age: Dragon
Location: Boston, MA
I mean again, I don't think sideboards make a whole lot of sense in EDH, but the social aspect of the format lets you do thinks that would never fly in a tournament.

You might go ahead and bring along those cards and then if you run into the same guy again ask him something like "Hey you beat us pretty good last time, is it OK if I add in some cards just for this game to give you more of a run for your money?"

If he says no, feel free not to play with him again, because it sounds like playing the same game again without any changes would be a waste of your time.

That's as far as I would go though, because I would imagine trying to introduce official sideboards in your group would end up being a nightmare.

_________________
Sygg, River Cutthroat: Ninjas, Rogues, Ophidians
Rosheen Meanderer: Hydras
Sapling of Colfenor: Toughness > Power
Riku: Pump Spells
Teneb: Life Manipulation
Kiki-Jiki: Big Red
Geth: Nim
Kodama of the North Tree: Hard Mode Voltron
Nin: Elementals
Sram: Jankstorm
Zur: Zombies
Rhys the Redeemed: Aura Voltron
Chandra, Fire of Kaladesh: Chandras
Ojutai, Soul of Winter: Tap Out Control
Alesha: Allies
Inalla: Treasures
Vial Smasher: Lava Axes
Atraxa: Counterless Keywords
Ludevic and Tymna: Curses


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-20 9:06 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
alexev wrote:
I play a mardu deck, last time in a table of 4 there was a monoblue that just played alone, he controlled us all, we didnt got to resolve abolute nothing useful, and the game ended after more than one hour of nothing doing nothing except for the monoblue player that took turn after turn.

After more than one hour of boring, we concede while we all where in 35+ life

I want to sideboard cards like boil, red elemental blast and pyroblast wich are just dead cards in the main.

I main reverberate as a "counter" but if I am not going against blue Is still relevant

But, this things are not what the topic is about, I still dont know if I can "demand my right of using the optional sideboard" or not


Our Commander hobby has a different way to resolve this situation than sideboarding:

It is to concede and exit the game (as you did) because of it not being fun, but it is also to give that player feedback that their deck is not fun, and suggest they alter it, because you don't want to play with that version again. Advise them their deck stalls and slows down the game enormously so that nothing meaningful can happen, and that isn't fun to experience. Advise them if they have a shutdown deck it should at least try to finish the game quickly rather than drag it out. Ask them if they have another deck available, and request they use it for the next game. Optionally you can just go play with another group if one's available.

There's lots of kinds of shutdown decks, and you can't adapt your deck to all of them or sideboard out against all of them. For example, the issue with a particularly impressive Sheoldred, Whispering One deck (let's say it has Archfiend of Depravity and Dictate of Erebos out for good measure) isn't that your spells can't resolve, it's that you can't keep any of your stuff even after it resolves. That requires a wholly different set of sideboarded cards, or usually, just losing.

If my deck doesn't fit a situation, instead of sideboarding, I just switch to another deck entirely, because I have -- and usually bring -- more than one. If my Mathas deck doesn't fit, maybe my Saskia deck will. I do that because I can't build a deck that will be appropriate for all circumstances.

You shouldn't try to solve this via sideboarding, either. Commander has a deliberate social element attached, and a social contract attached. There are two important parts to that:
  • It is played in a variety of ways, depending on player preference, but a common vision ties together the global community to help them enjoy a different kind of magic. That vision is predicated on a social contract: a gentleman's agreement which goes beyond these rules to includes a degree of interactivity between players. Players should aim to interact both during the game and before it begins, discussing with other players what they expect/want from the game. -- Philosophy; rule 1
  • “Create games that everyone will love to remember, not the ones you'd like to forget.” -- Official Banned List and Format Philosophy Document
Here, that second bullet point gets violated when a deck is awful and unfun to play against. Our social element (first bullet point) means it's totally fair to discuss the game and decks involved with your fellow players and give feedback and make requests so as to maintain a healthy atmosphere at the table.

Do yourself a favour and don't vs that cripplingly unfun deck again; do that deck's creator a favour and give them feedback that it's unfun so they don't keep subjecting other people to this and can instead create positive experiences for people.

----

Aside, I once played against someone using a Sheoldred deck in a 4-player game. That Sheoldred deck kept two of us pretty well locked down, and the Sheoldred player sorta buddied up with the fourth player whose deck was okay with having only 1-2 creatures each turn, mostly because their two decks were mutually scary to each other and a fight between them would resolve in mutual destruction.

The Sheoldred player realised he had largely turned the game into a 3v1 vs himself, and that he was miles ahead but that it felt kinda bad for us -- so at some point about 40-50 minutes in, the Sheoldred player deliberately swung at someone, leaving himself open for the fourth player to attack him -- the Sheoldred player had set himself up to lose the game. He said he was sure the fourth player would probably then win, and he'd consider that a sort of victory by alliance, so was happy to lose.

We then played out the game for another ~20 minutes while the Sheoldred player watched and talked with us. I can't remember who won, but that turned from a game that was kinda unfun to a really memorable fun finisher, and I love that Sheoldred player for doing that.

_________________
Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-21 2:04 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
alexev wrote:
If the blue player runs a reasonable ammount of counters (6-8) is one thing and Ill never side in, but the monoblue plays 16-18, plus recursions, bounces and steal effects.


I guess I'm missing something here. Counterspells.dec is traditionally difficult against three other players. What were the other people doing while he was countering all your spells? The deck needs to be drawing 3 cards on each of their turns to be keeping pace with the rest of the table.

A monoblue counterspell deck being able to control all 3 opponents is either a sign of a massive disparity in deck power, which is not going to be fixed by randomly adding Boil to your deck, or... hmm... trying to think up other explanations... bad threat assessment? something else actually being the problem?

If it's as bad as you say, everyone should be orcpiling on the player from the start of the game, and no monoblue deck is going to be able to keep up with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Is still allowed to have a sideboard?
AgePosted: 2017-Oct-22 5:54 am 

Joined: 2017-Oct-19 12:02 am
Age: Drake
papa_funk wrote:
alexev wrote:
If the blue player runs a reasonable ammount of counters (6-8) is one thing and Ill never side in, but the monoblue plays 16-18, plus recursions, bounces and steal effects.


I guess I'm missing something here. Counterspells.dec is traditionally difficult against three other players. What were the other people doing while he was countering all your spells? The deck needs to be drawing 3 cards on each of their turns to be keeping pace with the rest of the table.

A monoblue counterspell deck being able to control all 3 opponents is either a sign of a massive disparity in deck power, which is not going to be fixed by randomly adding Boil to your deck, or... hmm... trying to think up other explanations... bad threat assessment? something else actually being the problem?

If it's as bad as you say, everyone should be orcpiling on the player from the start of the game, and no monoblue deck is going to be able to keep up with that.



He did control us all, I play a fine tunned Kaalia deck in almost 'optimal' card selection, my friends where playing sub-optimal decklist with no blue in their colors so we weren't able to counter-war.

I have played against monoblue with the sideboard I am telling you and is a different game when I can win the counter-war with a Pyroblast

He was drawing a lot of cards and taking a lot of turns, countering every single play we did and the things that we were able to resolve bounced back.

Since that awful experience I am also using as main Stranglehold, Defense grid and price of glory and when we add those 3 extra cards (pyroblast, red elemental blast and Boil) well the odds changes

And my last addition is card I will never play in any main, Akroma, angel of fury, is a total pleasure to see the smile of the blue player while I tap 8 mana and them showing the uncounterable angel that hast protection from blue so it cannot be bounced back or stolen (unless for artifact removal and or shackles).

From that experience I learned to have a sideboard, the purpose of my question in this topic was about knowing if I can 'hold my right' in the official rules or not, the answer sadly is that I can't hold my 'right' in the official rules so next time I have to play against one of that players I will be adding sideboard and if the mono-blue mage disagrees then Ill explain, and if he still disagress one of us will be have to look for another table.

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Playing:
Edgar Markov The current updated decklist is here
Oloro, Ageless ascetic The current updated decklist is here
Yennett, Cryptic Sovereign The current updated decklist is here
Phelddagrif The current updated decklist is here


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