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 Post subject: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-06 9:04 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
Why is Gifts Ungiven still banned?

FoF effects are fun in a multiplayer setting.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-06 9:25 am 
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As a counter-point --- if you find FoF effects so fun, why not use all the other existing ones that you can use... why do you want Gifts Ungiven?

It's possible the reason that it's banned can be found in your answer to that question.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-06 9:32 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
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I have to agree, Gifts is a combo card, and the ban list is no longer combo oriented.

The people who are going to do the worst are the same ones who make Hermit Druid decks or Ad Naus decks.

GY hate being a lot better and a lot more common only reinforces the unban position.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-07 10:41 am 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It's banned under the "interact poorly with the rules of the format" criteria. The different names part of the card is pretty much irrelevant in this format, so it's a 4 mana double entomb, double tutor.

This isn't a FoF effect and you cant compare it to FoF, because you tutor the cards, and it's not just a combo enabler either. It's two demonic tutors, for the cost of diabolic tutor, at instant speed, and as much as I dont think tutors should be banned overall, this one is too powerful.

Gift's, if legal, would be an absolute auto-include in every deck running blue mana, no exceptions.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-07 12:05 pm 

Joined: 2014-Apr-03 3:46 am
Age: Drake
specter404 wrote:
It's banned under the "interact poorly with the rules of the format" criteria. The different names part of the card is pretty much irrelevant in this format,


Gifts isn't banned under "interact poorly with the rules of the format" criteria. It's banned under:
Quote:
GIFTS UNGIVEN
We know that this will raise a great cry from some players, but as we previously noted, Gifts is simply broken (especially at the 3U cost and the fact that it’s an Instant). The ability to tutor for two combo pieces and two ways to recur them generally makes this a one-card game-ender, which we feel is completely contrary to the EDH vision.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2074

Which you know doesn't make a whole lot of sense when cards like Tooth and Nail exist, rc just unbanned Hulk and rc wants to move away from banning combo pieces

specter404 wrote:
It's two demonic tutors, for the cost of diabolic tutor, at instant speed,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aS4pRp6ttY

Carthain wrote:
As a counter-point --- if you find FoF effects so fun, why not use all the other existing ones that you can use... why do you want Gifts Ungiven?

It's possible the reason that it's banned can be found in your answer to that question.


I don't understand this comment at all. What is your point?


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-07 1:42 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
T&N costs double the mana at sorcery. Plus cards are banned on an individual basis so the comparison is both inapt and not useful.

The link you provided for the banning of the card is from 2009, the banning criteria have been significantly refined since then. "Thats shit's broke AF" isn't a criteria any more. Based on the criteria by which things are currently banned, I believe gifts most significantly fits into 'interacts poorly'. It may have been initially banned as a combo piece, but it remains banned for being an incredibly strong tutor effect that would warp the format and become an instant staple.

And I aint lying, I play modern gifts and when you resolve gifts ungiven, it feels like a double tutor. You have to be somewhat smart about how you do it, but that's a lot easier in a singleton format where you are already playing a bunch of redundant effects with different names, as well as some amount of recursion.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-07 2:49 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Gift's, if legal, would be an absolute auto-include in every deck running blue mana, no exceptions.
Lots of cards fall into this sort of designation, its not a ban criteria.

Even if its a double tutor, you still have to recur the items and pay those costs. Its much easier to break the format than this card. Its a relic from the time when combo was soft banned out.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-07 3:38 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Calling it 'double demonic double entomb' is still incredibly dishonest. "Feels like" is really not... that's not scientific. That's like calling a 2 turn Time Walk "Explore" when the reality is it still ridiculously well over the power of a turn 2 explore.

You can draw 20 cards with Necro or Ad Naus or cast any spell from your deck for +2 mana with Demonic and this card is banned. Ugh. "But Necropotence doesn't give you the cards right away". My bad guys, i forgot what a HINDRANCE it is to wait half a turn. Not even a turn cycle, mind you.

Then there's the argument against Gifts that you "get 2 combo pieces, and you get 2 regrowths". Um, so?? So you spend like 2 turns minimum and about 8 mana minimum (to get them in hand with "regrowths", not to cast the combo) and have to cast 3-5 spells?? Seriously, this is an argument, but is much closer to an 'engine' than a 'one card combo'. And yet everyone says "well okay Tooth is totally balanced because you need 7/9 mana and you deserve great things for 9 mana".

I'm not saying it isn't powerful. But i am saying it isn't too powerful, nor it does it appropriately compare to other legal cards that can do better or similar. I am saying it isn't a "one card game ender".

And then all times i have to repeatedly hear "This banlist isn't tooled to stop people from comboing off" / "It isn't for competitive players" and "Gifts is banned because you can combo off too easily". Gurgh.

Or the piles of " Reveillark, Karmic Guide, Body Double, Mirror Entity". Okay, i get it, you can feasibly find a 4 card combo. That doesn't make it not a 4 card combo, and it's still true (or selectively true) that combos are not policed.

The best argument i have heard for it's banning is "because you search for your 4 best cards and get 2 of them for 1 card" but i am not personally grasping how that is very different from the
1 card combo' of Necropotence/Ad Nauseam draw absurd numbers of cards (even though you can't choose).

Lol. This card gets me fired up.

Also, unban Library.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-08 1:39 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
You can draw 20 cards with Necro or Ad Naus or cast any spell from your deck for +2 mana with Demonic and this card is banned. Ugh. "But Necropotence doesn't give you the cards right away". My bad guys, i forgot what a HINDRANCE it is to wait half a turn. Not even a turn cycle, mind you.
This is an argument for banning those two, not an argument to unban Gifts.

Sovarius wrote:
And then all times i have to repeatedly hear "This banlist isn't tooled to stop individual combos" / "It isn't for competitive players" and "Gifts is banned because you can combo off too easy without intentionally trying to". Gurgh.
FIFY, although still a little bit un-nuanced.

There's also a major flaw present in all of your arguments; everything you say really and truly has little to do with actually unbanning the card. What you are arguing for is that Gifts shouldn't have been banned in the first place. While that may indeed be true, it doesn't change the fact that Gifts is banned now. And since changes to the banned list are entirely based around improving the format, it's only logical to say that in order to get Gifts unbanned, you'd have to actually make an argument about how it would improve the format. I don't think Demonic Tutor should be banned, but if it was banned I wouldn't want it back because I'd argue its net contribution to the format is at best a zero. Arguing that a card should be unbanned isn't about proving the lack of a negative impact, it's about proving a positive one. Staff of Domination wasn't just unbanned because it was deemed "not harmful enough", but because it was also deemed to be a card that actually makes the game more fun when used responsibly.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-08 6:16 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
You can draw 20 cards with Necro or Ad Naus or cast any spell from your deck for +2 mana with Demonic and this card is banned. Ugh. "But Necropotence doesn't give you the cards right away". My bad guys, i forgot what a HINDRANCE it is to wait half a turn. Not even a turn cycle, mind you.
This is an argument for banning those two, not an argument to unban Gifts.

No this is not, since the Rule Committee clearly does not think those 2 need to be banned.

But yes, i would agree, if something like Gift's should not belong, then they should not belong. So if i were trying to get AdNaus and Necro banned, i could imagine that's an okay point to raise. Although, AdNaus and Necro are kind of just obviously broken anyway.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
And then all times i have to repeatedly hear "This banlist isn't tooled to stop individual combos" / "It isn't for competitive players" and "Gifts is banned because you can combo off too easy without intentionally trying to". Gurgh.
FIFY, although still a little bit un-nuanced.


Would have to disagree with this second amendment. If you create a combo with Gifts, you are pretty clearly trying to create a combo. It's not a coincidence when you grab a 4-card engine or combo and it's not a coincidence when you grab '2 things you want, 2 regrowths'.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
What you are arguing for is that Gifts shouldn't have been banned in the first place. While that may indeed be true, it doesn't change the fact that Gifts is banned now. And since changes to the banned list are entirely based around improving the format


But this is dumb, so it's probably not reasonable to expect that people want changes to be made differently. If a card has no negative impact on the format, there is no reason to not include it and keep the banned list to a minimum. It is a weak cop out and doesn't seem like it ever has been anything else.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
it's only logical to say that in order to get Gifts unbanned, you'd have to actually make an argument about how it would improve the format.


Logical because of precedence, i should expect this from the RC. I don't expect this is the reasonable stance outside the fact that this is the history of the format's banlist.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I don't think Demonic Tutor should be banned, but if it was banned I wouldn't want it back because I'd argue its net contribution to the format is at best a zero.


I'm curious of a couple things (and not to nitpick).

If this is true for DT, is it true for Wood Elemental? If WE was already banned, you believe it should not be unbanned? It adds 0 to the format but it has no earthly reason to be banned.

If you believe DT should be unbanned without a specific reason since it adds 0 at best, then why do you not believe it should be banned right now? If, at best, it adds 0 to the format (which means more often detracts?) and is obviously powerful and in general breaks the idea of the singleton formats?

But it seems having this stance amounts to accepting that mistakes and poor decisions should be defended and maintained. If a card 'should never have been banned, but now i don't want it unbanned'; you are just defending a mistake or poor decision.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Arguing that a card should be unbanned isn't about proving the lack of a negative impact, it's about proving a positive one.


Right, this is both apparent and also apparently a poor way to manage a format imo.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-08 10:57 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
And since changes to the banned list are entirely based around improving the format, it's only logical to say that in order to get Gifts unbanned, you'd have to actually make an argument about how it would improve the format.

I do not think this is true at all. I saw no evidence based argument that the format was BETTER with Kokusho, the Evening Star, just that the format had evolved to deal with it. It no longer fell into a ban worthy category. That is a legitimate issue to take with cards currently on the list, as has happened before.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-08 11:15 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
This is an argument for banning those two, not an argument to unban Gifts.

No this is not, since the Rule Committee clearly does not think those 2 need to be banned.
When I say "this is an argument for X", I mean "The points you're raising support an argument for X".

Quote:
Would have to disagree with this second amendment. If you create a combo with Gifts, you are pretty clearly trying to create a combo. It's not a coincidence when you grab a 4-card engine or combo and it's not a coincidence when you grab '2 things you want, 2 regrowths'.
Hence what I said about the amendments being a bit less nuanced then I wanted. If I were to completely rewrite your statements rather than just amend them, I would have replaced "combo" with... something along the lines of "overpowered play".

Sovarius wrote:
If a card has no negative impact on the format, there is no reason to not include it and keep the banned list to a minimum. It is a weak cop out and doesn't seem like it ever has been anything else.
The thing is, Gifts has been shown to in the past have a negative impact. The fact that it has had a negative impact before makes the case that it will have none a bit harder to prove, and makes it even more imperative that you show it has a net positive. As I mentioned, cards like Hulk and Staff still have negative impacts but overall contribute enough positive/fun to override it.

Quote:
If this is true for DT, is it true for Wood Elemental? If WE was already banned, you believe it should not be unbanned? It adds 0 to the format but it has no earthly reason to be banned.

If you believe DT should be unbanned without a specific reason since it adds 0 at best, then why do you not believe it should be banned right now? If, at best, it adds 0 to the format (which means more often detracts?) and is obviously powerful and in general breaks the idea of the singleton formats?
Banning something is itself a detraction. For something to be banned, it needs to cross a threshold where its negativity on the format outweighs the problems with banning it. Anytime a card gets banned, it is as a necessary evil. While I think that Demonic Tutor's presence in the format is not a good thing, I think the host of problems that come with banning it are worse.

However, the much more important point is that in any situation, banning or unbanning, the burden of proof is on the one requesting the change. Gifts was legal for a while. Some people wanted it banned. The burden was on them to show that it deserved to go away. According to the RC, they succeeded and Gifts is now banned. Now that Gifts is on the banlist, the argument for change is to unban it. At some point in the past Gifts was deemed to harmful to the format.

Quote:
But it seems having this stance amounts to accepting that mistakes and poor decisions should be defended and maintained. If a card 'should never have been banned, but now i don't want it unbanned'; you are just defending a mistake or poor decision.
That's a bit of oversimplification. Aside from everything else I've mentioned, there's also the possibility that Gifts was banned for Reason A, a stupid reason, and is now kept on the banlist for Reason B, a much better one. Even if the reason for Gifts originally being banned was the RC selecting a card at random from all cards with the letter "F" in their name, that doesn't change whether or not the card still belongs on the list today. Good decisions can be made for stupid reasons.

Quote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Arguing that a card should be unbanned isn't about proving the lack of a negative impact, it's about proving a positive one.


Right, this is both apparent and also apparently a poor way to manage a format imo.
Out of all the problems this format has that the RC could fix, I don't think "too big of a banned list" is even remotely the biggest. If I was suddenly granted autocratic power to remove any number of cards from the list, I don't think anything but Painter's Servant would come off. Maybe I'd bring back "banned as a commander" and reintroduce Braids into the format. Maybe.

MRHblue wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
And since changes to the banned list are entirely based around improving the format, it's only logical to say that in order to get Gifts unbanned, you'd have to actually make an argument about how it would improve the format.

I do not think this is true at all. I saw no evidence based argument that the format was BETTER with Kokusho, the Evening Star, just that the format had evolved to deal with it. It no longer fell into a ban worthy category. That is a legitimate issue to take with cards currently on the list, as has happened before.
[/quote]Kokusho offers a ton to the format. It's kinda the definition of the type of card EDH was made for. Big iconic legendary beater with a really powerful effect that synergizes with half of the cards in the color black? The only reason it was ever banned is that once upon a time people couldn't use all that power responsibly.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-08 11:43 am 
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Sovarius wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
Arguing that a card should be unbanned isn't about proving the lack of a negative impact, it's about proving a positive one.


Right, this is both apparent and also apparently a poor way to manage a format imo.

The problem with your opinion there - is unless you expand on it, it's no different than saying you think the format should be played only while the players are wearing hats.

Feel free to expand on why you feel that way though - could make for some good discussion.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-08 1:19 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Gift's, if legal, would be an absolute auto-include in every deck running blue mana, no exceptions.
Lots of cards fall into this sort of designation, its not a ban criteria.


Yes it is, it's the third one:
http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12254&hilit=banlist+criteria

Quote:
Problematic Casual Omnipresence. Some cards are so powerful that they become must-includes in decks that can run them and have a strongly negative impact on the games in which they appear, even when not built to optimize their effect.


Gifts is too powerful, if you don't believe me, unban it and I will be waiting with the "I told you so" banner in six months time.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-08 4:28 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
specter404 wrote:
Yes it is, it's the third one
Sure if you purposely overlook "This does not include cards which are part of a specific two-card combination". That's exactly my point, its part of combo. Sure not a specific one, but that's peoples argument against it in this thread, and in general.

As long as Sol Ring is legal, ubiquity alone cannot be the criteria.

Quote:
Gifts is too powerful, if you don't believe me, unban it and I will be waiting with the "I told you so" banner in six months time.
Power is ALSO not a ban criteria. Of course you can break it, you can break dozens of legal cards.

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