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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 4:01 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Because it also seems like it's a fun card and perfect for the format, but actually isn't.
An interesting point I had never heard about this card. I could see that.
Quote:
It alters the deckbuilding of players (in that they add a whole new colour to their deck so they can use that card*)
You would agree a claim such as that would require substantiation?

Quote:
Interestingly - that's not the argument that was put forth (at least by me.) I never said "it requires X different card names, therefore it interacts badly with the format." So, while not a straw-man, you are over simplifying the argument and that does you a disservice (as you can't accurately discuss things.)
A bunch of people were, my apologies if I misconstrued. You were just sort of saying 'interacts badly' without a lot of specifics.

Quote:
Let me ask you this: Why is Sundering Titan banned (and related, why isn't this something that you've said should come off the ban list?)
This has been answered. By me. In this thread

specter404 wrote:
Gifts is a split card akin to who/what/when/where/why, but the parts are entomb, demonic tutor, intuition, tooth and nail/ad nauseum, fact or fiction.
Hyperbole like this makes it really difficult to take your discussion of the card seriously.

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niheloim wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 4:12 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Gifts is a split card akin to who/what/when/where/why, but the parts are entomb, demonic tutor, intuition, tooth and nail/ad nauseum, fact or fiction.
Hyperbole like this makes it really difficult to take your discussion of the card seriously.

How is it hyperbole? We have discussed, at length, how gifts ungiven can act as any one of those cards. How is saying that gifts is therefore a split card combination of them a hyperbole?

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 6:23 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
Demonic Tutor gives you only one card, not 2-4.

The fact it tutors up a whole 2-4 things for you to do and not just one like most tutors was my point.


In keeping with the spirit of checking other's honesty (to the best of our erring and biased human minds can muster), i have to disagree.

You get 2 cards maximum off of Gifts. If you tool around with a graveyard deck, then hooray, your deck has extra uses for this card.

If you are getting 2 cards you want and 2 recursion, you are still just getting 2 cards in a very roundabout cast-three-spells kind of way.

Thanks for the response.

You described at the top of your post how to get a full 4 spells out of this:

Sovarius wrote:
Are people ignoring the cool things you can do with Gifts that i listed? I mentioned Delirium and Spell Mastery, but i also forgot Delve and Dredge that are also new, as well as 2 more Flashback sets. I hope i can take that as implicit agreement.

I didn't explain it at the time since I figured our imaginations were already pretty active around this card -- Dredge and Flashback are some of the abilities that were on my mind. They're abilities which turn cards into their own recursion. I agree those are cool things you can do, but they're also the kind of thing that can help make Gifts Ungiven into tutoring up to its maximum potential of 4 cards. So, respectfully, you can definitely get more than 2 cards out of this.

There are also a goodly number of commanders who will be happy to see two cards head to their graveyard even if they don't fit any of those properties, because they'll get them back in a turn or two. Most of them the very next turn, if you save Gifts Ungiven to be cast during an opponent's end step right before your turn. Some honorable mentions:
  • The Mimeoplasm, at CMC5, will happily enter copying one of your four best cards with +1/+1 counters for another.
  • Silas Renn, Seeker Adept, or Ravos, Soultender paired with a blue partner, will happily each get one of those permanents back next turn.
  • Mairsil, the Pretender will have one of those two cards' activated abilities now, and the other card's later.
  • Kess, Dissident Mage will count as free Flashback for the sorceries you'll be tutoring up, this turn then next.
  • Bruna, Light of Alabaster will get those auras back in a couple of turns. In her deck this seems even more appealing than using Three Dreams: you get four auras rather than three, and two of them will be free. (That said, I haven't played yet against a Bruna deck. I don't know if she's already busted.)

All of this stuff just covered means all the four cards brought up by Gifts Ungiven will be available immediately, or in the next turn or two. Those aren't "hooray you have extra uses", they're the card people here are saying are broken turning more trivially into a tutor for 4 arbitrary cards than in other scenarios.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 11:22 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Haven't played against her since the tuck rule change, but the tuned deck I saw was gross until she got tucked. Gifts and Intuition are auto-includes that win the game in a single swing. She most certainly doesn't need gifts to be legal, but we shouldn't weigh the legality of a card on a single general.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-13 11:39 pm 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
cryogen wrote:
Haven't played against her since the tuck rule change, but the tuned deck I saw was gross until she got tucked. Gifts and Intuition are auto-includes that win the game in a single swing. She most certainly doesn't need gifts to be legal, but we shouldn't weigh the legality of a card on a single general.


Is that Bruna you're referring to?

(I agree with that last statement, though that isn't the basis of what I'm saying.)

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 1:05 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
Quote:
It alters the deckbuilding of players (in that they add a whole new colour to their deck so they can use that card*)
You would agree a claim such as that would require substantiation?

I'd seen and heard of it happening when the card was legal.

MRHblue wrote:
You were just sort of saying 'interacts badly' without a lot of specifics.
I'd actually mentioned why if you were listening -- but it seems you saw it and just grouped it in with other 'noise' that you saw.

MRHblue wrote:
Quote:
Let me ask you this: Why is Sundering Titan banned (and related, why isn't this something that you've said should come off the ban list?)
This has been answered. By me. In this thread

Fair... so lets see what you said:
MRHblue wrote:
I don't think so, because what it does (blow up lands) is most often thought of in a negative light by players I have spoken to. Thats not true of all, but most, and thats the same vibe I get from the people on these forums. Tutoring just does not rate the same. Answers are needed, politics can be a part of Gifts. ST isnt a 'may', a large factor even mentioned in the banning. Plus you most likely don't even win off a ST, just nuke lands and make the game miserable for some (or all) your opponents.

Sooo lets see about breaking it down a bit.

1) Most often thought of in a negative light by players. Sure, but just because people think something is ban worthy doesn't make it so (see cards like Deadeye Navigator)
2) Tutoring isn't the same as blowing up lands. I agree - however, hyper efficient tutors (such as Gifts) can still cause me to not play just the same as destroying my lands can. Destroying lands is just easier to see.
3) It doesn't cause you to win

For #1, I'd also like to point out that many people didn't think ST needed to be banned when it was. They simply see now that the format is better off without it. That seems very similar to Gifts IMO - many people don't think it needs to be banned, but the format is more fun without it. The games last longer, you see more "non-blue" decks than when Gifts was legal. Just because some (or a bunch of) people don't see that doesn't make it not true.

For #2 - Yes it is "just" a tutor spell, but it's a hyper efficient tutor spell. You can compare it to Demonic Tutor, but that does it a huge disservice. DT doesn't have the same power & utility that Gifts does.

For #3 - You seem to be implying that, because Gifts can be used to let you win, that it's acceptable. I mean, you just shuffle up and play again right? But it also destroys good games suddenly. Makes for more negative games to remember than positive ones.

MRHblue wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Gifts is a split card akin to who/what/when/where/why, but the parts are entomb, demonic tutor, intuition, tooth and nail/ad nauseum, fact or fiction.
Hyperbole like this makes it really difficult to take your discussion of the card seriously.

Here's the biggest problem trying to discuss that with you: This isn't hyperbole.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 1:27 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
papa_funk wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
Because multiple other cards have that exact stipulation,

Which?

Realms Uncharted
Saheeli Rai
Three Dreams
Uncage the Menagerie

Now obviously none of these have the power of Gifts. I am merely saying 'X cards with different names' does not make a card 'interact poorly' with the format to me.


You have an interesting definition of exact. Additional restrictions are very relevant.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 2:21 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
cryogen wrote:
Haven't played against her since the tuck rule change, but the tuned deck I saw was gross until she got tucked. Gifts and Intuition are auto-includes that win the game in a single swing. She most certainly doesn't need gifts to be legal, but we shouldn't weigh the legality of a card on a single general.


Is that Bruna you're referring to?

(I agree with that last statement, though that isn't the basis of what I'm saying.)

Yes. The typical build was counters and tutors for enchantments and greaves. You basically have to keep pressure on her from turn 1 because much like Narset, one swing is all she needs to kill someone.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 2:37 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
I'd seen and heard of it happening when the card was legal.
I do not doubt that is true. But we agree to be format altering it has to be more than a few people across a few metas, correct?

Quote:
Fair... so lets see what you said{A bunch of stuff about ST}
And we agree cards get banned for being many things that don't work well together. I think we also agree ST is best off banned.

Quote:
For #3 - You seem to be implying that, because Gifts can be used to let you win, that it's acceptable. I mean, you just shuffle up and play again right? But it also destroys good games suddenly. Makes for more negative games to remember than positive ones.
That is not at all what I am saying. In STs case it slows the game down to a crawl by removing your lands, and isnt much of a win condition and more than any large beater is. Coupling that with no lands was, to me, the issue. I agree we don't want games wrecked out of nowhere, but lots of cards do it. That seems like a good reason some combo pieces used to be banned. How else are games getting wrecked suddenly where you have to 'shuffle up' outside combo? What I am saying about Gifts is its powerful, and can be used interestingly and interactively. It can end games, and save games, just like so many good and powerful cards.
---
Carthain wrote:
Here's the biggest problem trying to discuss that with you: This isn't hyperbole.
You are correct, that would be an issue discussing this card then. But I don't think thats a one sided issue. See below.
---
specter404 wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
specter404 wrote:
Gifts is a split card akin to who/what/when/where/why, but the parts are entomb, demonic tutor, intuition, tooth and nail/ad nauseum, fact or fiction.
Hyperbole like this makes it really difficult to take your discussion of the card seriously.

How is it hyperbole? We have discussed, at length, how gifts ungiven can act as any one of those cards. How is saying that gifts is therefore a split card combination of them a hyperbole?
You have said it, it was not discussed. Its not DT because it reveals your cards, and you don't choose what goes into your hand. It cannot tutor up two specific creatures to your hand. It also cannot put two creatures directly onto the battlefield, let alone both. And it certainly can't draw you 10 cards like Ad Naus can. I agree, if it was a card that could do all those, it should be out. It can do pieces of those cards, and we agree its flexible, but to call it a split of those cards is hyperbole.

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 5:07 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
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MRHblue wrote:
How else are games getting wrecked suddenly where you have to 'shuffle up' outside combo? What I am saying about Gifts is its powerful, and can be used interestingly and interactively. It can end games, and save games, just like so many good and powerful cards.

Ah, but just because it can be user interestingly, doesn't mean it will be used interestingly. Only rarely have I seen Gifts used that way.

As for how else does a game get suddenly wrecked outside of combo? T&N. Which I said earlier I support removing from the format.

I also am not a fan of you arguing using "here's what theory says" vs my "here's my experiences with the card." And then you go on to say that my experiences are merely anecdotal. That may be true - but they're better on the "proof" spectrum than your theorycrafting arguments. So I see you dismissing my experiences with the card, while you offer up even less in the way of proof that it's a beneficial card for the format.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 6:34 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Ah, but just because it can be user interestingly, doesn't mean it will be used interestingly. Only rarely have I seen Gifts used that way.
Agreed, and lots of legal cards can and are often used 'brokenly'. If it was out there wrecking games often and not being used interestingly, it could get banned again. Just like Protean Hulk or Staff of Domination may. Or a card that has never been banned leaks into this territory. But sins of the past should not be the only thing keeping it on, or nothing would ever come off.
Quote:
As for how else does a game get suddenly wrecked outside of combo? T&N. Which I said earlier I support removing from the format.
Outside of combo?
Quote:
I also am not a fan of you arguing using "here's what theory says" vs my "here's my experiences with the card." And then you go on to say that my experiences are merely anecdotal. That may be true - but they're better on the "proof" spectrum than your theorycrafting arguments. So I see you dismissing my experiences with the card, while you offer up even less in the way of proof that it's a beneficial card for the format.
That's fine, its the only way to discuss a card thats banned. I don't dismiss your arguments out of hand, I am saying the entire ban philosophy has changed, combo isnt banned out anymore, powerful cards people think the same way about have been unbanned, and GY hate is much more prevalent. All of these are my points, and I get you don't think its enough. But its all opinion and anecdote, when something comes up that I agree with, I toss in my .02 because thats how we influence decisions. People so often get called down for saying anything outside status quo, when people say something unpopular that I agree with, I think its important to speak up.

papa_funk wrote:
You have an interesting definition of exact. Additional restrictions are very relevant.
That is a great point, they are not exactly the same, only very similar. I should have said that.

Did the 'different names' aspect of Gifts contributed to the banning? Do you think that criteria of the search influences it continuation on the ban list?

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 8:32 am 
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MRHblue wrote:
Quote:
As for how else does a game get suddenly wrecked outside of combo? T&N. Which I said earlier I support removing from the format.

Outside of combo?

I never said T&N was a combo. Although, probably best to pause here and define what we each mean by 'combo'.

Do you consider Craterhoof & an pre-existing board to be a combo? I don't. Thus T&N isn't (necessarily) a combo-win in my books, but it still wrecks potentially good games.

MRHblue wrote:
I don't dismiss your arguments out of hand

When you call for proof when I state something, and then give you more proof than you provide and you say "surely we need more than that" .. that certainly feels like you're dismissing it out of hand vs taking it under consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 8:56 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
I never said T&N was a combo. Although, probably best to pause here and define what we each mean by 'combo'.
Do you consider Craterhoof & an pre-existing board to be a combo? I don't. Thus T&N isn't (necessarily) a combo-win in my books, but it still wrecks potentially good games.
I agree thats not combo, thats why I asked. But thats not out of nowhere either. If they have a large enough presence to kill everyone with a resovled Craterhoof, thats not 'suddenly wrecked', as your post posits.

Quote:
When you call for proof when I state something, and then give you more proof than you provide and you say "surely we need more than that" .. that certainly feels like you're dismissing it out of hand vs taking it under consideration.
I can't decide how you take things. I don't think I am calling for proof, nor do I think you are proving any. No card being unbanned would meet the stipulations you seem to be putting on Gifts. And certainly Tooth and Nail wouldn't if it were banned, but its not. So there are places inside that crevice to discuss changes. I certainly don't care to have quotes like that attributed to me when I didnt say it.

At this point I am fine saying we disagree on Gifts and move on.

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 12:48 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MRHblue wrote:
You have said it, it was not discussed. Its not DT because it reveals your cards, and you don't choose what goes into your hand. It cannot tutor up two specific creatures to your hand. It also cannot put two creatures directly onto the battlefield, let alone both. And it certainly can't draw you 10 cards like Ad Naus can. I agree, if it was a card that could do all those, it should be out. It can do pieces of those cards, and we agree its flexible, but to call it a split of those cards is hyperbole.

So realms uncharted has exactly the same wording, despite only searching for lands, but DT is significantly different because the card it revealed. Interesting how you draw the line of significance.

I added DT to the conversation everything else came from other people, and while I have been guilty of some hyperbole in this thread, the split card comment was not an example of it. So with that in mind I will modify my split card concept, lets go modal instead:

Mode 1: Search your library for 4 copies on one effect you need right now, an opponent most likely gives you two of the slightly worse versions. Demonic tutor may not reveal the card, but gifts being instant means you play it end step, or right before you need the card you tutor for, so it can be used immediately.
Mode 2: Search your library for 1-2 cards you really want and 2-3 recursion effects, an smart opponent will give you the least useful combination, but you will end up with the cards you want even if it costs you some extra mana. This is the double tutor effect, a little slow but again, it's an instant so you end step and then untap with plenty of mana.
Mode 3: Search for 4 value cards, you get what the table decides is the worst two. This isn't exactly better or worse than FoF, it's somewhere between because you get to pick the exact four cards but the opponents pick the ones you get
Mode 4: "Counter or I win", search for a combo that wins the game, do this only when your opponents are tapped out or unlikely to be able to stop you. This is the T&N/Ad Nauseum component where those cards are primarily used to end the game on the spot.
Mode 5: Search for one or two cards you want in the graveyard, they go to the graveyard and your opponents have no say. This might win the game, or just answer a problem or advance your board the world is your oyster. This is the double entomb effect.

Now, tell me which card currently legal has the capacity to do any of those things.

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 Post subject: Re: Unban Gifts?
AgePosted: 2017-Nov-14 1:38 pm 
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MRHblue wrote:
If they have a large enough presence to kill everyone with a resovled Craterhoof, thats not 'suddenly wrecked', as your post posits.

That's your opinion. You may have also noticed that I only included one creature in that, not two -- so the game state is often irrelevant. And no, I don't consider Craterhoof + Avenger of Zendikar a 'combo.'

MRHblue wrote:
I don't think I am calling for proof

How is "You would agree a claim such as that would require substantiation? " not asking for proof? What else is substantiation of a claim that I actually made?

Please be honest with what you've already said.

MRHblue wrote:
I certainly don't care to have quotes like that attributed to me when I didnt say it.

What quote have I mis-attributed to you?


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