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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 10:57 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
spacemonaut wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
I have two points to contribute:

1. Blacker Lotus and the card referring to nerf guns should be banned ASAP. Same goes for some cards in Unstable like The Countdown is at One.

2. I would like to quickly point out that temporarily unbanning cards and temporarily legalizing cards are two different things.


The Nerf Gun card is banned: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18754

Papa_funk's position on Blacker Lotus seems to be "if they really want to tear up a card to win, let them." https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/7 ... e/dqnp2gk/

I don't see what the issue is with The Countdown. (It's a subgame but you start at 1 life and the goal is to get it over with asap.)

Suppose I play Aquire and steal someone's Blacker Lotus. Do I get to tear up their property?

The Countdown is at One could be a problem if your opponent is playing Oloro or Hive Mind. The difference between starting at 1 life and starting at 5 life is not significant enough to differentiate this card from Enter the Dungeon in terms of ban-worthiness.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 11:34 am 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
Suppose I play Acquire and steal someone's Blacker Lotus. Do I get to tear up their property?


No.

https://twitter.com/SheldonMenery/statu ... 1118756864

Yes, that refers to Chaos Confetti and not Blacker Lotus. Extrapolate.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 1:20 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
DarksteelElephant wrote:
You guys know this, and you think that this means that no one will get to use the new Un-Cards unless you make it an official ruling, and you are actually right. The problem is, for the 90% of people who don't want to use Un-Cards, you have just ruined the next month.


Your argument is predicated on the fact that you are the majority, the 90% as you put it. Now if that is true you might have a case, it would not be worth ruining 6 weeks of gameplay to appease 10% of the population.

There are 2 flaws in your argument. If as you say that 90% of the community are opposed to silver borders, then you will have no problem finding like minded people to play regular commander with. There have already been posts discussing how the various EDH competitions are ignoring the un-announcement.

However the community is at best split close to 50/50 based on my observations here, in my local area and adjusting for the fact that the most annoyed people make the most noise about it. So it is worth "ruining" a month of play for some of the people to appease an equal amount of other people.

So you end up with competing variables, the larger the percentage of people who's month would be ruined by this announcement, the larger the pool of people who will be able to ignore it and find people who dont want to play silvers, as the percentage of players opposed falls, the likelihood of finding someone who doesnt want to play silver decreases, but so does the amount of people opposed in the first place, to the point that it is impossible to find a game without silver bordered cards because no-one wants to play without them. Anywhere along the scale the RC still made the right choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 1:47 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Sounds to me like WOTC wants to sell packs.

I'm honestly curious, for a format that is run so laissez-faire and actually encourages the playerbase to splinter into micro factions with house rules why could "Hey, we encourage celebrating this new set by creating some fun un-decks!" not have been a suggestion or an informal (well, WAY informal) separate format. This more or less just doesn't allow people to opt-out very easily.

The thing with opting-in is you don't need to disturb the natural flow of events as is. Those who wish to opt-in would not have to do so at the expense of people who don't want to play with rules that are one or more of; confusing, glitchy, exploitable, abnormal, designed to make you act like a fool. (not to exclude fun, there are handfuls of fun silver border cards). These cards are literally houserules and people who want to play them are not unable to find each other.

For the record, i LOVE the unsets and playing Unglued when i was very young was not only fun because this was way before i knew what competing was, but also because i have always tinkered with game rules and Unglued even further delved me into game theory and design. It's just that this seems like a total mess.

The silver lining for those of us who do not want this for the format but wish to continue playing with randoms, is that a lot of the cards are just bad, and we will live.

If someone i don't know on a personal level and/or i don't want to touch targets me with Side to Side, i will blurt out "concede! take your 3/3" before they finish announcing the spell and people will learn i'm not about to physically touch them and suddenly cards that force your opponent to do something silly for little reward and way too much mana are pointed elsewhere.

Swmystery wrote:
https://twitter.com/SheldonMenery/status/936633001118756864

Yes, that refers to Chaos Confetti and not Blacker Lotus. Extrapolate.

That's not how the card works though, that's just how Sheldon says you should play it. I'm not about to let someone play Blacker Lotus from hand and sac it for 4 mana without destroying that card, and if i cast Steal Artifact targeting one (although no one should be playing Lotus without a need like Force of Will or using it that turn anyway) i fully expect them to defend themselves against my action, like any other in-game action.

It's not about 'taking hostage' a card to force a concession, it's a legitimate and most likely optimal play. No one should be putting Blacker Lotus into their deck if they are unwilling to rip it or have it ripped. In my opinion, anyone who plays Blacker Lotus or Chaos Confetti onto an open field for someone to Steal Artifact and doesn't shred their card in response to concede is giving me permission. I'm not here to attempt to destroy people's cards, but if you play a card that ONLY WORKS when it's physically demolished irl, then i take that as a dare. You think that card is funny, that's great, because i do too. Let's play. I 100% dare someone to Thada Adel me and shred my Blacker Lotus.

If it is to be believed that the law of good sense prevents you playing wacky fake MTG cards the way they are intended to be played (per Sheldon on twitter above), then how in card game hell did someone think that it's not the law of good sense that prevents you from targeting an old and/or disabled person with mobility issues with Ashnod's Coupon (per Sheldon on the Coupon thread) to walk up to a vending machine? If you're seriously trying to make a person in a wheelchair with quaking hands struggle to buy your drink you might be an actual pos, but there is a far cry in trying to mess with a human being because of their disability than it is to laugh at the crazy rulings on the very very small amount (there IS only 2, right?) of JOKE cards that literally instruct you to rip them.

specter404 wrote:
However the community is at best split close to 50/50 based on my observations here, in my local area and adjusting for the fact that the most annoyed people make the most noise about it. So it is worth "ruining" a month of play for some of the people to appease an equal amount of other people.


Is that how that works? Change things and frustrate 50% of people as long as 50% of people like it? Granted, this is temporary, but i don't see how that makes any sense at all when certainly more than 50% of players were happy with the format previously.


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 3:34 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Actually just remembered that manual dexterity is already 'banned' in this format.

Since Chaos Confetti is allowed (and therefore *some* MD), wouldn't it have been reasonable to also 'unban' the original Chaos Orb?

Orb doesn't seem broken in context.

Just a thought, i know it's minimum on a list or priorities.


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 5:38 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
OK, I have an alternative solution to cards like Blacker Lotus and Chaos Confetti. Make an official Rule Announcement (not on Twitter, not on Reddit, but on This Site) introducing the following rule.

If an instruction tells you to tear up a card, that instruction is considered impossible unless three things are true: you have permission from the person whose property the card that you're tearing up is, you own the card that you're tearing up, and the instruction is printed on the physical card that you would be tearing up (ignore any continuous effects when checking for this).

I edited the crap out of this rule to get it right. If anyone has any suggestions about how to improve this rule or structure it as a Comprehensive Rule, please share them.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 6:28 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
It seems to work, but is a bizarre amount of work for just 2 cards, which are relatively broken. Shred it if you wanna play imo. It's part of the appeal/fun of them.

Also this format/the rc don't do individual card errata.

Easier to ban them if they were truly a problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 7:10 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
It isn't card errata; it's rule tweaking. They would be changing the definition and functionality of the action "tear up [this card]" as it exists in this format, and that is completely within their capacity and authority as RC.

EDIT: Also, please read the proposed rule carefully. I don't preclude the owner from tearing up their own Blacker Lotus.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-05 10:49 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
It's a solution to a nonexistent problem.


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-05 11:00 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
If you really want to run Blacker Lotus, this is the one spot where I'm OK with someone just proxying the stupid thing. It's a stupid card from a stupid set designed to do things that are stupid, and it's going away in about a month. And that way there's no need to get bent out of shape when it gets used, and you can proxy up 6 so that you can still have a legal deck for your next game.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-05 2:29 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
papa_funk wrote:
It's a solution to a nonexistent problem.

Sigh. If there is just ONE problem with the RC, it is the sheer and blatant laziness and immobilizing regard they have for the comprehensive rules. I don't care how rare a scenario is. One would think that with a big change like this, they would have thought this through.

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-06 11:56 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
it is the sheer and blatant laziness and immobilizing regard they have for the comprehensive rules.



Which is funny considering that most if not all of the RC have at one point or another been level 3 judges.....

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-07 4:15 am 
EDH Rules Committee
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Age: Elder Dragon
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trappedslider wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
it is the sheer and blatant laziness and immobilizing regard they have for the comprehensive rules.



Which is funny considering that most if not all of the RC have at one point or another been level 3 judges.....


In fact, ALL of us have at one point been L3 judges (Scott was way back in the day when he was a TO and before he went to WotC). We also boast a L4 (who was also a Regional Coordinator) and two L5s (and members of the Magic Judge Hall of Fame).

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-07 4:55 am 

Joined: 2008-Aug-08 6:34 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Rouen, France
Sheldon wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
it is the sheer and blatant laziness and immobilizing regard they have for the comprehensive rules.



Which is funny considering that most if not all of the RC have at one point or another been level 3 judges.....


In fact, ALL of us have at one point been L3 judges (Scott was way back in the day when he was a TO and before he went to WotC). We also boast a L4 (who was also a Regional Coordinator) and two L5s (and members of the Magic Judge Hall of Fame).


Is "Emeritus" above L5 or is it just level 5 with sparkly bits?

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 Post subject: Re: Making UN-cards legal and why it is the worst decision ever.
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-07 6:25 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
zimagic wrote:
Is "Emeritus" above L5 or is it just level 5 with sparkly bits?

Emeritus to to L5 as Twilight is to Vampires?

(btw I hate you forever for making me think that :P )

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