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 Post subject: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-01 9:10 pm 

Joined: 2017-Dec-01 9:07 pm
Age: Egg
This is a new account. I am merely cross-posting this from my original Reddit post:

Dear Rules Committee,

Your recent decision to unban silver bordered cards has been met with heavy criticism for several reasons, and I feel I speak for everyone when I say that we would like you to address the communities concerns.

People have mentioned that your banlist did not appear well thought out. Blacker Lotus is essentially a “win on turn one” mana rock, and cards like Necroimpotence are functionally better copies are the strongest cards in the format. Can you elaborate on your decision-making process?

You have elected to unban silver-bordered cards at a time when EDH has quite a following in the form of players who are running tournaments (hundreds of EDH FNM happen every Friday across the country). Seeing as how there is no judge support or official rulings for silver-bordered cards, how do you suggest this is handled?

Many players have pointed out the Blacker Lotus/Chaos Confetti combo that allows you to essentially hold your opponents cards hostage unless they concede. While you have said in your tweet that this was not allowed, you obviously missed the point: that this decision wasn’t well thought-out from the communities perspective. Is there any chance of revisiting the banlist to alleviate these concerns?

Many silver bordered cards are entertaining and we appreciate that this was done in the spirit of fun, however allowing physical dexterity cards in EDH may alienate players with physical disabilities, and that is the reason that they were banned to begin with. What do you have to say to EDH players around the world with these disabilities who now put themselves at risk for embarrassment at their local game stores?

I am sure that answering these questions would put the community at large at ease over the next 45 days.

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 2:01 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
I'm responding to this on reddit in just a moment.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 3:16 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Would you please post your reply here (or at least link it)?


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 3:28 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
https://www.reddit.com/r/EDH/comments/7 ... e/dqnp2gk/


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 5:19 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
I didn't think I would have this much trouble understanding the freak-out over silverbordered cards... but I am have a lot of trouble.

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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 7:58 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Keep in mind that this is like a quarter of the level of the tuck freakout and maybe half the Prime Time Ban. It's more on the Sylvan Primordial level.

Reddit freaks out almost every time there's an update. It's a combination of it being a central hub of more competitively oriented players (and the periodic reminder that while they're welcome to play, the format isn't optimized for them) and the ability to echo chamber that. If you look at the stuff that's been voted into the negatives, there's a bunch of people who are a lot chiller about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-02 10:44 pm 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
RIP tuck rule and BaaC.... :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-03 6:57 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
papa_funk wrote:
Keep in mind that this is like a quarter of the level of the tuck freakout and maybe half the Prime Time Ban. It's more on the Sylvan Primordial level.
.

at least those I understood.

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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-03 3:22 pm 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
JamesEB wrote:
Your recent decision to unban silver bordered cards has been met with heavy criticism for several reasons, and I feel I speak for everyone when I say that we would like you to address the communities concerns.
These sorts of assumptions for thousands of people is always a hoot!

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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-03 5:52 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
JamesEB wrote:
This is a new account. I am merely cross-posting this from my original Reddit post:

Dear Rules Committee,

Your recent decision to unban silver bordered cards has been met with heavy criticism for several reasons, and I feel I speak for everyone when I say that we would like you to address the communities concerns.


Personally, I'm fine with the non-game breaking silver bordered cards being legal in Commander. It IS a casual format, you know.

Quote:
People have mentioned that your banlist did not appear well thought out. Blacker Lotus is essentially a “win on turn one” mana rock, and cards like Necroimpotence are functionally better copies are the strongest cards in the format. Can you elaborate on your decision-making process?


If people want to rip up a Blacker Lotus to win on turn one, more power to them, they can only do it so many times, and that much dedication kinda deserves a win. Necro-Impotence is NOT functionally better than Necropotence. It's functionally worse, in my opinion.

Quote:
You have elected to unban silver-bordered cards at a time when EDH has quite a following in the form of players who are running tournaments (hundreds of EDH FNM happen every Friday across the country). Seeing as how there is no judge support or official rulings for silver-bordered cards, how do you suggest this is handled?


Maybe stop playing Commander in tournaments, at least using the multiplayer form? Use the 1v1 Commander banlist and rules for that, because that's one of the reasons it exists?


Quote:
Many players have pointed out the Blacker Lotus/Chaos Confetti combo that allows you to essentially hold your opponents cards hostage unless they concede. While you have said in your tweet that this was not allowed, you obviously missed the point: that this decision wasn’t well thought-out from the communities perspective. Is there any chance of revisiting the banlist to alleviate these concerns?


Again, if someone is dedicated enough to DESTROY CARDS to get that turn one win/elaborate combo, let them win by it and laugh as they DESTROY THEIR CARDS.

Quote:
Many silver bordered cards are entertaining and we appreciate that this was done in the spirit of fun, however allowing physical dexterity cards in EDH may alienate players with physical disabilities, and that is the reason that they were banned to begin with. What do you have to say to EDH players around the world with these disabilities who now put themselves at risk for embarrassment at their local game stores?


The only point you've made that makes sense to me. However, there are only 4 (soon to be a fifth) cards in silver border that are dexterity based. And I'm sure most playgroups would not object to a neutral party from outside the game assisting with such uses.

Quote:
I am sure that answering these questions would put the community at large at ease over the next 45 days.

Thank you.


The community at large is very likely perfectly fine with this change. Remember, you don't hear complaints from people who are fine with it, so that may skew your perception.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-04 5:02 am 

Joined: 2017-Dec-02 2:06 pm
Age: Egg
tgambitg wrote:
Maybe stop playing Commander in tournaments, at least using the multiplayer form? Use the 1v1 Commander banlist and rules for that, because that's one of the reasons it exists?


1v1 commander and multiplayer commander play nothing alike. The standard commander banlist is the reason people enjoy tournament EDH it in the first place. I know that tourney EDH has a pretty big negative stigma attached to it but you're comparing apples to oranges, you're essentially asking someone who enjoys vintage to go play standard.

tgambitg wrote:

The community at large is very likely perfectly fine with this change. Remember, you don't hear complaints from people who are fine with it, so that may skew your perception.


I think that OP's statement is assuming a bit too much, but I feel like this change has summoned a few more complaints than usual. I'm a part of multiple very large EDH related communities and the response I have seen so far has been pretty overwhelmingly negative. Obviously you can't expect to have a perfect representation because as you said, you don't hear from people who are fine with it, but I feel like simply dismissing those opinions is a bit unfair.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-05 7:35 am 
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Joined: 2008-Mar-24 12:14 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Oakland, CA
neosloth wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
Maybe stop playing Commander in tournaments, at least using the multiplayer form? Use the 1v1 Commander banlist and rules for that, because that's one of the reasons it exists?
1v1 commander and multiplayer commander play nothing alike. The standard commander banlist is the reason people enjoy tournament EDH it in the first place. I know that tourney EDH has a pretty big negative stigma attached to it but you're comparing apples to oranges, you're essentially asking someone who enjoys vintage to go play standard.

Well, if JamesEB is playing in tournaments with actual prizes on the line, they aren't really playing the format the way it was intended. There's nothing wrong with that, but when they then run into problems as a result and want the official rules to cater to their outside situation, I think tgambitg's advice is pretty sound.

To run with the apples-and-oranges metaphor, let's say you have a lot of oranges, and you've been making orange pie with them from an apple pie recipe. And you're enjoying your pie, but you want to change the official recipe a little bit because it tastes kind of funny sometimes. Well, the pie is apple pie. It's not supposed to have oranges in it. If you are enjoying orange pie, please continue, but the recipe will not change to make your orange pie taste better.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-05 10:26 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
intreped wrote:
neosloth wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
Maybe stop playing Commander in tournaments, at least using the multiplayer form? Use the 1v1 Commander banlist and rules for that, because that's one of the reasons it exists?
1v1 commander and multiplayer commander play nothing alike. The standard commander banlist is the reason people enjoy tournament EDH it in the first place. I know that tourney EDH has a pretty big negative stigma attached to it but you're comparing apples to oranges, you're essentially asking someone who enjoys vintage to go play standard.

Well, if JamesEB is playing in tournaments with actual prizes on the line, they aren't really playing the format the way it was intended. There's nothing wrong with that, but when they then run into problems as a result and want the official rules to cater to their outside situation, I think tgambitg's advice is pretty sound.

To run with the apples-and-oranges metaphor, let's say you have a lot of oranges, and you've been making orange pie with them from an apple pie recipe. And you're enjoying your pie, but you want to change the official recipe a little bit because it tastes kind of funny sometimes. Well, the pie is apple pie. It's not supposed to have oranges in it. If you are enjoying orange pie, please continue, but the recipe will not change to make your orange pie taste better.


Or it's like using a paper shredder to grate your carrots, and then when someone goes and adds a guide rail that helps the paper slide in properly but prevents you from stuffing carrots in there, complaining that the device is no longer any good for shredding carrots.

It wasn't meant to do carrots in the first place. There's other tools for grating carrots you can and should be using instead.

Likewise EDH wasn't made for competitive tournaments. So if we complain that an EDH rule doesn't work well for tournaments, it's like if we're the person complaining that the paper shredder is no good for carrots anymore.

If we want to run a tournament of some kind, we should be using a format and ruleset made for doing that, and it isn't EDH. We use EDH for its intended purpose, which wasn't competitive tournaments.

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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-05 10:47 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
neosloth wrote:
I think that OP's statement is assuming a bit too much, but I feel like this change has summoned a few more complaints than usual.


Oh my sweet summer child.

Go back and look at the tuck freakout sometime.


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 Post subject: Re: Silver Bordered Cards, a Civil Discussion
AgePosted: 2017-Dec-05 10:57 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
spacemonaut wrote:
Or it's like using a paper shredder to grate your carrots
I have nothing meaningful to contribute to this conversation (it's been said by many people already) but I just wanted to comment on the unusual way your brain works. Good job sir, good job.

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