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 Post subject: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-04 9:46 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-04 9:18 am
Age: Drake
:mrgreen:

I know some players who have a dedicated "wishboard" for certain decks. With the printing of Mastermind's Acquisition, is it possible there could be a discussion about allowing an x card sideboard for all decks?

For example, when I'm playing my Izzet deck, and I see no mountains in the pod...I'd love to side out Pyroblast and Blue Blast...


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-04 10:26 am 
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Joined: 2012-Sep-19 1:30 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
This card doesn't fundamentally change anything in any way that would change how/why wishboards should exist. If Spawnsire of Ulamog didn't do it, then Mastermind’s Acquisition (which even works without a wishboard) surely won't.

mike44njdevils wrote:
For example, when I'm playing my Izzet deck, and I see no mountains in the pod...I'd love to side out Pyroblast and Blue Blast...
And this is a primary example of why sideboards don't exist in Commander. Color hate is very powerful, and the sometimes-it's-worthless downside is often the only thing keeping it from being so prevalent it's cancerous. (This, BTW, is also why wishboards are typically avoided in this format, as you could just load it up with color-hate cards and pick the best one every time).

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-04 11:17 am 
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Willbender wrote:
And this is a primary example of why sideboards don't exist in Commander. Color hate is very powerful, and the sometimes-it's-worthless downside is often the only thing keeping it from being so prevalent it's cancerous. (This, BTW, is also why wishboards are typically avoided in this format, as you could just load it up with color-hate cards and pick the best one every time).
And this is a primary example of why sideboards don't exist in Commander. Color hate is very powerful, and the sometimes-it's-worthless downside is often the only thing keeping it from being so prevalent it's cancerous. (This, BTW, is also why wishboards are typically avoided in this format, as you could just load it up with color-hate cards and pick the best one every time).

(Not a double post - Willbender just said it so well it deserved to be said again)

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-05 2:41 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
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"Outside the game" cards not working in commander makes *zero* sense. This is a very pointedly a casual format, so the excuse of "no sideboard" simply doesn't fly. Sideboards only apply to tournement settings. In commander, "Outside the game" cards should be able to grab anything you own (hey, like the card *says* it does!). If we can freaking allow silver bordered cards that don't at all work within the rules, why is there a rule to specifically hose a small subset of actually fair cards?

It was different when they didn't really print wishes anymore, but there have been two in as many years. They're going to keep getting printed, and not allowing them to work makes zero sense. It's as silly as the "Commanders with symbols in their rules text that aren't in the mana color are unusable" nonsense from years ago that took *way* too long to fix. RC... fix this. There is no need for sideboard or wishboard rules... local groups can enforce their own rules on that if people are taking too long to make selections.

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My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-05 4:17 am 

Joined: 2014-Apr-04 9:18 am
Age: Drake
kaldare wrote:
"Outside the game" cards not working in commander makes *zero* sense.


This is pretty much my attitude...

...however...

I understand why it isn't that way as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-05 5:46 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
Is it actually that different than the rest of Magic?

Sit down to a pick-up game of 60 card multiplayer casual - as in, not a defined constructed format like Modern, Legacy, etc.

Someone resolves a Wish and breaks out a box or binder. A considerable majority of players will say that's not acceptable, despite it being clearly allowed by the rules of the game.

The Commander rules on this site go to the trouble of spelling this out for you. The rules in the CR don't (cuz that's not really what the CR is for).

So it's very much like the rest of Magic. If you're not playing a constructed format with a defined sideboard then you should expect the behaviour of Wishes to be subject to approval from the rest of the players.

The stewards of this format have gone out of their way to explicitly define that which should be obvious.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-05 6:59 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
Would be nice if it worked on command zone so you can get out Phage or Haakon.

Current only command beacon works for Haakon and a few others for phage.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-06 9:51 am 
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Joined: 2016-Oct-08 7:22 am
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What I want to know is if wishes are really that bad why not flat out ban them instead of treating them with what is essentially format specific errata? (Rule 12 changes them from "this card does a thing" to "this card does nothing".) The list does not even need the name the cards specifically. Just say all cards with "outside the game" in their rules text are banned. This way we do not have legal cards that have basically been functionally changed by the rules and any play group able to negotiate the use of banned cards can also negotiate how they want them to be used.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-06 2:17 pm 
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Plushie Dragon wrote:
What I want to know is if wishes are really that bad why not flat out ban them instead of treating them with what is essentially format specific errata?

Except there is no format-specific errata. The official rules of Magic is that "outside the game" refers to your sideboard. Saying it's "anything you own not in this deck" is a house rule. Not having sideboards in this format is also not errata; that's just a base rule for the format.

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My Decks: Zombiepocalypse (Thraximundar) ♦ Thrun stands alone (voltron) ♦ Ashling the Burninator ♦ Doran beatdown (treefolk/plant tribal) ♦ Mine! (UB theft/clone) ♦ Vampire Beatdown (Edgar Markov) ♦ BW Enchantments (Daxos the Returned)


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-06 4:16 pm 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Willbender wrote:
The official rules of Magic is that "outside the game" refers to your sideboard.

That is not entirely accurate. Per CR 400.10a, cards in the sideboard are outside the game. But "outside the game" does not refer exclusively to cards in a sideboard. "Outside the Game" is defined in the CR as "not in any of the game's zones". It is the tournament rules that restrict cards like Wishes to sideboards, for logistical reasons - so a player in a tourney couldn't literally search his trade binder for silver bullets, wasting loads of time. Rule 12 exists to force playgroups that want to allow wish use to establish a standard of operation, so that one player cannot enforce their interpretation of what is acceptable on the group at large. If I feel it's OK to have 5 binders full of options, and you don't, "It's a casual format" shouldn't be a blanket excuse to do whatever I want. Likewise, wishes bring up questions like "can you Burning Wish for Time Stretch in a mono-red deck?" - technically there's no rule that says you can't, and thanks to the removal of the color-producing restriction, you could possibly even cast it. Should that be a thing? That is left to the players to decide. I personally would prefer the "just ban them and be done with it" approach, as I think these effects violate the intent of the format by essentially letting you build decks that have more than 100 cards, and the possibility of also violating the color ID rules in addition I find unacceptable, but I'm not on the RC.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-06 8:24 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
I think these effects violate the intent of the format by essentially letting you build decks that have more than 100 cards
This is my primary thought, too.

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

"I'm happy to serve as a quote machine" - Sheldon


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-07 1:33 am 
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Joined: 2013-Nov-04 2:12 am
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Location: Northamptonshire, UK
Viperion wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I think these effects violate the intent of the format by essentially letting you build decks that have more than 100 cards
This is my primary thought, too.


To me, it doesn't. You never have more than 100 cards (unless you do crazy things with copy effects), just a number of modal cards with more modes (depending how big you allow the sideboard to be) than most other modal cards, and you pay more mana for those modes (since you're paying for the cost of the Wish on top of the usual card's cost).

I'd love it if Wish sideboards were a thing (because I really want to use Glittering Wish in my all-multicolour Cromat deck) but I recognise that other people will likely not use them in the same way that I want to use them, so accept the way things are right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-07 7:19 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Plushie Dragon wrote:
What I want to know is if wishes are really that bad why not flat out ban them instead of treating them with what is essentially format specific errata? (Rule 12 changes them from "this card does a thing" to "this card does nothing".)

Also because some of the cards, such as the one presented in this post, do other things. Chopping out part of what a card did would be format errata. This is the cleanest and most straightforward way of allowing people to cast those things if they like for other effects.

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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-07 7:50 am 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
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Plushie Dragon wrote:
What I want to know is if wishes are really that bad why not flat out ban them instead of treating them with what is essentially format specific errata?


Because they're mostly fine, once a playgroup agrees on a scope.

You, however, don't get to be the person who forces that scope on your playgroup.


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 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-07 8:29 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
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Masked Thespian wrote:
Sid the Chicken wrote:
I think these effects violate the intent of the format by essentially letting you build decks that have more than 100 cards
To me, it doesn't. You never have more than 100 cards (unless you do crazy things with copy effects

I don't understand this response at all. You have a 99+1 deck. You cast a wish and get a card. You now have 100+1... how is that "never more than 100 cards"?

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"Degenerate, unfun decks generally come from degenerate, unfun players in my experience." - Cthulus Thrall

"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

"I'm happy to serve as a quote machine" - Sheldon


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