Login | Register


All times are UTC - 7 hours


It is currently 2019-Jun-23 8:57 pm




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 226 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 8:17 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Nov-04 2:12 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Northamptonshire, UK
tgambitg wrote:
Masked Thespian wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
I see them as only a way to have bigger than a 100 card deck. You have 100+sideboard-number of wishes in your deck. It's because people don't want to cut cards, they want to have answers to everything without the penalty for doing so.


For me, I just want to include Glittering Wish in my Ramos, Dragon Engine "multi-coloured matters" deck. I have no problem with playing exactly 100 cards. I have no problem with cuts. I don't even particularly care about having a narrow, specific answer for a problem. I just want to include the only multi-coloured wish spell that wishes for exclusively multi-coloured cards because it's precisely the awesome kind of card that fits the deck's theme.



So... just cut the multi color wish card and put the multi color card in?

Problem solved?


You're missing the point. According to you, the only reason why anyone wants to use Wishes is because they want access to more than 100 cards, they don't have the discipline to cut cards, and/or they want to have answers to everything without paying the penalty for doing so.

I'm giving a direct counterexample of someone who wants a Wish for none of the above reasons: me. I want to use Glittering Wish because it's a cool, unique effect that fits perfectly in the deck I want to use it in. I want to include it for one of the most Johnny of reasons: because it fits with the deck's theme. Telling me to just swap it out for the potential target of the spell does nothing at all for me, because then I don't get to use the awesome card, one that I actually purchased for the deck (albeit, well before Ramos was released) back when the Sideboard rule was still in effect.

Also, saying that your point of view is the only reason why anyone does anything is a narrow-minded point of view that ignores people like myself and my own point of view. You are not the voice of everyone, so please do not act like you have the answers to everything.

Do I accept that Wishes are currently soft-banned in Commander? Yes, even though I don't like it. Would I like them "unbanned" with something akin to a reinstituting of the "sideboard" rule? Yes, though I accept that many other players would likely abuse them far more than I ever would.

_________________
Regards,
MT.


Putrid Pirate Proliferation
Lord of Voltronhorn
Unlife of the Party
Jaya Ballard, Discard Mage
Zedruu and the Minotaurs
Vish Kal's ManSlaughterhouse
Izzet Any Good?

Chorus of Counters


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 8:58 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Masked Thespian wrote:
You're missing the point. According to you, the only reason why anyone wants to use Wishes is because they want access to more than 100 cards, they don't have the discipline to cut cards, and/or they want to have answers to everything without paying the penalty for doing so.

That's a generalization of reasons stated by people in this thread. No one is claiming thats the only reason.

And if you ask people at the start, I bet you get to play it a vast majority of the time.

_________________
sir squab wrote:
My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 2:13 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Masked Thespian wrote:
I want to use Glittering Wish because it's a cool, unique effect that fits perfectly in the deck I want to use it in. I want to include it for one of the most Johnny of reasons: because it fits with the deck's theme.


How does it fit the deck theme other than the fact that it says the word multicolored? There are 38 cards with that word on them, why is this card so much more important that the others? Why does this fit the theme more than cloven casting? Are you playing the eidolon cycle from ravnica or the X-blade cycle from Alara? Yes the card fits the theme, but what purpose does that card actually serve in the deck. If it is really just the fact that it references your theme then you have plenty of other options that do the same thing.

alexev wrote:
That is exactly my argument in favor of wishes, I don't want to be maining a pyroblast but sometimes I just need it.

I think wishes would be good for the format if we were allowed to have a sideboard

Again, my question was WHY are they good for the format, why would the format be better when every deck has better answers available in each game? How does that translate to good gameplay?

Give people easier access to GY hate, and graveyard decks start to die because it's so much harder to go off. People will have easier access to colour hate, which is strongest is white and blue, pushing the power of those decks, weakening the others. People will have easier access to pillow fort cards and stax cards (enchantments and artifacts) further weakening aggro. All of this points in one direction, control.

Wishes disproportionately advantage UWx control. Alex, I can see that you think wishes are good for the format, so tell me why.

_________________
Favourite Deck:
Ghost Council of Orzhova

Playing Online:
Noyan Darr & Sedris Zombie Guy


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-25 3:44 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
And this, my dudes- is exactly why Rule 13 is the way it is, you see. In many EDH groups, Wishes are accepted where they just play as another fabulous super power- filling roleplayer cards that break the 100 card rule, like so many of the cards in the game bend or break other rules.

It really is, as simple as that. It's a part of the social contract that must be addressed on an individual basis. Some wish packages are super relaxed- and just turn the spell into a modal card, others want to tutor for power pieces. This all exists in degrees.

In my own playgroups- as I suggested a second ago- I would rather someone choose a wish that behaves like a modal spell to, something that behaves like additional excessive tutors. They have a cool utility- and give the player a super-power, which is something I'm totally okay with, as long it isn't being made stronger than similar effects scaled up like Praetor's Council. In our playgroup, we prefer 20-25 minute games, with tolerance up until about 40 minutes. So insanely high value effects are welcome to put the game into tense positions with dramatic conclusions. This is to say that someone playing a cool wishboard over a regular tutor should feel to the group like someone playing Decimator of the Provinces over Craterhoof Behemoth, or Decimator over Tooth and Nail as a concession to the group's mutual interest to not have the game end literally the same time every time a player wins.

But some other groups like even shorter games, or particularly drawn out experiences. The context of wishes changes in those groups- and thus it only makes sense as falling to the group to agree prior to play.

_________________
niheloim wrote:
Wall of Chat. 2U
Creature- Wall

Defender
Wall of chat exceeds at using a lot of words to mischaracterize opposing view points.

Warp Riders (Ephara Solar Flare)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-26 8:25 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Nov-04 2:12 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Northamptonshire, UK
MRHblue wrote:
That's a generalization of reasons stated by people in this thread. No one is claiming thats the only reason.


That's a fair assessment. I've drifted in and out of this thread, and skipped a number of pages of it at times. But he/she/they made that post and I felt I was able to contradict it with a reasonable argument, so I did. I wasn't aware that it was a generalisation, but as a statement it's one that I felt that didn't represent me at all even though it felt like it was aimed at players like myself, who would like to play with Wishes, being ignorant of the reasons they might like to do so.


MRHblue wrote:
And if you ask people at the start, I bet you get to play it a vast majority of the time.


I agree. I'm trying to find a decent playgroup who would like to play Commander in the same manner that I would and I'm hoping that they'd be as conducive to an optional sideboard rule for using Wishes as I'd like them to be.


specter404 wrote:
How does it fit the deck theme other than the fact that it says the word multicolored? There are 38 cards with that word on them, why is this card so much more important that the others? Why does this fit the theme more than cloven casting? Are you playing the eidolon cycle from ravnica or the X-blade cycle from Alara? Yes the card fits the theme, but what purpose does that card actually serve in the deck. If it is really just the fact that it references your theme then you have plenty of other options that do the same thing.


Have you seen the decks that I build? I've included such stinkers as Wit's End, Blood Reckoning, and Cower in Fear in my Nicol Bolas deck, because they're on theme. I've included Mutant's Prey as the only removal spell in an Abzan "+1/+1 counters" theme deck because it was the only one I could find that referenced +1/+1 counters and, thus, was on theme. My first drafts of theme decks often take the themes up to eleven, almost to the point of absurdity, because I often feel more strongly about the theme than my desire to win games.

It's a multicoloured card that Wishes for a multicoloured card. In a "multicolour matters" theme deck, it's about the most on-theme card you could possibly envisage.

And, if you check out the first draft of my Ramos deck (still listed as a Cromat deck because I haven't updated the post in literally years: here) then you'll see that I do, indeed, include all five of the X-blade cycle from Alara. I'd missed out on the Eidolons from Ravnica as, at the time, I was so heavily into the theme that I only wanted multicoloured cards in the deck, but they're something that I'll think about in the future, now that you've brought them to my attention. Thank you for that.

_________________
Regards,
MT.


Putrid Pirate Proliferation
Lord of Voltronhorn
Unlife of the Party
Jaya Ballard, Discard Mage
Zedruu and the Minotaurs
Vish Kal's ManSlaughterhouse
Izzet Any Good?

Chorus of Counters


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-29 12:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Masked Thespian wrote:
And, if you check out the first draft of my Ramos deck (still listed as a Cromat deck because I haven't updated the post in literally years: here) then you'll see that I do, indeed, include all five of the X-blade cycle from Alara.

I looked at the decklist... I didn't see a wishboard for it. This begs the question - what cards would you want to wish for in this list?

_________________
"The President's job - and if someone sufficiently vain and stupid is picked he won't realize this - is not to wield power, but to draw attention away from it." -- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide tot he Galaxy Radio Transcripts predicting the future.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-01 1:24 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
Age: Drake
I for one think Wishboards should be allowed but only for the purpose of wishing and not an actual sideboard. They should be probably 10 cards and no more, perhaps less than 10 if the person has no need for the actual 10.

The sideboards should be presented to the group for approval before the game and if anyone disagrees with any of the cards then the cards at fault should be removed (not replaced) and/or the wishboard is disallowed.

This helps encourage people to make a flavorful wishboard and not just 'win more'. As I'm sure has been said numerous times, easy enough to house rule something like this.

As for it breaking the 100 card limit, that already kind of happens. When you Spelljack or Take Possession are you not effectively breaking your 100 card limit? Lastly, and this is all off the top of my head mind you, arguably the best argument for a wishboard not breaking the 100 card limit: Praetor's Grasp. This card IS a wishcard but it searches your opponents library instead of a wishboard and much like the two before it, does break color restrictions.

The list goes on and on. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter to me one way or the other if wishboards are allowed. When I cast Mastermind's acquisition in my Bolas theme deck, I'll just get some oppressive/disruptive card that my opponents won't get to see while secretly wishing I was getting Nicol Bolas or The Immortal Sun (now that's flavor)



Side note: Not sure why someone said people were going to use it to exploit out of color identity when sideboards follow all the standard rules for deckbuilding in w/e format you're in (no banned cards, no more than allowed number of cards in a 'play set', etc)

p.s. thanks Masked Thespian for some of the deck ideas, not sure how I missed those 3 but I think they'll def go in lol


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-01 2:38 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Necrachilles wrote:
As for it breaking the 100 card limit, that already kind of happens. When you Spelljack or Take Possession are you not effectively breaking your 100 card limit?


Umm no. Even if you are using spelljack - you're only bringing 100 cards to the table. Sure, you can use other people's cards from time to time (Control Magic, Threaten, etc.) but that's during game play - not during deck building.

Adding in SB options for wishes is you bringing more than 100 cards to the game.


Necrachilles wrote:
Lastly, and this is all off the top of my head mind you, arguably the best argument for a wishboard not breaking the 100 card limit: Praetor's Grasp. This card IS a wishcard but it searches your opponents library instead of a wishboard and much like the two before it, does break color restrictions.

Again - the # of cards restrictions is a deck building restriction. Once you get to the table, and start the game, you've satisfied those deck building restrictions.

Do you really kick people out of your game if their commander changes colour? If I take your Isamaru commander and I deathlace it -- does that mean you now have an illegal deck because your commander is black and you have a whole bunch of non-black cards in your deck? No. Because colour identity is a deck building restriction - not a game play restriction.

Don't confuse the two situations.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-01 3:50 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2015-Mar-24 8:21 pm
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Umm no. Even if you are using spelljack - you're only bringing 100 cards to the table. Sure, you can use other people's cards from time to time (Control Magic, Threaten, etc.) but that's during game play - not during deck building.

Adding in SB options for wishes is you bringing more than 100 cards to the game.

Must be nice to be happy to only play one deck. Pretty much everyone I know has multiple decks so way more than 100 cards per player brought to the table. That is if we're being as literal as you are.

Continuing with your train of thought "that's during gameplay - not during deckbuilding", this would tell me that wish cards, in your mind, should be legal and usable without a sideboard. Because if a player sits down to play a game of EDH and has a spare deck, they could technically wish from that deck since they own it and they just happen to have it with them. Their initial deck was built and well with in the rules. During gameplay, as you said, things are apparently different.


Carthain wrote:
Again - the # of cards restrictions is a deck building restriction. Once you get to the table, and start the game, you've satisfied those deck building restrictions.

Do you really kick people out of your game if their commander changes colour? If I take your Isamaru commander and I deathlace it -- does that mean you now have an illegal deck because your commander is black and you have a whole bunch of non-black cards in your deck? No. Because colour identity is a deck building restriction - not a game play restriction.

Don't confuse the two situations.

Not sure why you'd suggest I'd kick people from a commander game for having a different color'd commander. Seems quite the strawman.

Besides, color identity is only checked during construction/start of match.
Quote:
903.4a Color identity is established before the game begins.

So you changing colors technically doesn't change the color identity in the first place. Good try though.

Again, back to your table/deck building logic. "Once you get to the table, and start the game, you've satisfied those deck building restrictions." You literally just agreed with wishes being legal right here. Because effectively, you can no longer use "well wishing cards in breaks the 100 card limit". So, why are we even arguing if we agree?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-01 4:45 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Necrachilles wrote:
Carthain wrote:
Umm no. Even if you are using spelljack - you're only bringing 100 cards to the table. Sure, you can use other people's cards from time to time (Control Magic, Threaten, etc.) but that's during game play - not during deck building.

Adding in SB options for wishes is you bringing more than 100 cards to the game.

Must be nice to be happy to only play one deck. Pretty much everyone I know has multiple decks so way more than 100 cards per player brought to the table. That is if we're being as literal as you are.

Continuing with your train of thought "that's during gameplay - not during deckbuilding", this would tell me that wish cards, in your mind, should be legal and usable without a sideboard. Because if a player sits down to play a game of EDH and has a spare deck, they could technically wish from that deck since they own it and they just happen to have it with them. Their initial deck was built and well with in the rules. During gameplay, as you said, things are apparently different.


No, you're not getting it. If you have a wishboard, you are bringing more than 100 cards PER DECK. Having multiple decks doesn't mean a damn thing in the context we (those who view wishing as not functioning because it's breaking deck building restrictions) are using. You are not being literal, you are being intentionally obtuse.

100 cards per deck. That is the limit.

Adding a wishboard extends the number of cards to 100+wishboard-number of wish cards. Which, if you're using wishes, is greater than 100.

This is against the whole idea of a 100-card limit. Make the cuts. If you don't have that answer, oh well. That is the sacrifice you must live by for the format.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-01 7:50 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Necrachilles wrote:
Must be nice to be happy to only play one deck. Pretty much everyone I know has multiple decks so way more than 100 cards per player brought to the table. That is if we're being as literal as you are.

Yeah, see, we're a little light on table-space, so we only play one game at a time. As tgambitg said: you're being intentionally obtuse. If you want me to use very specific language, I can do so.

Necrachilles wrote:
Not sure why you'd suggest I'd kick people from a commander game for having a different color'd commander. Seems quite the strawman.

No it's not a strawman (especially since I'm saying you wouldn't do it.) It's a comparison. And if you don't get it - just ask and I can explain and line up the comparison for you. But just sitting back and being obtuse (even from your original post about how cards like Spelljack increase the # of cards in your deck) isn't helping the matter here. In fact, it starts making that side look silly.

Necrachilles wrote:
Besides, color identity is only checked during construction/start of match.
Ohh... so, you know this... but can't seem to grasp that your deck size restriction is also only checked during construction/start of the match? Or do you really need things to be spelled out in front of you?

Necrachilles wrote:
So you changing colors technically doesn't change the color identity in the first place. Good try though.

So how does using Spelljack break the 100 card limit? Because thats the exact same thing (apparently you do need it spelled out).

Both Colour Identity and the Deck Size Limit are deck building restrictions. They limit how you build your deck. Once you start playing the game, those no longer apply. That's why the comparison to colour identity is a (mostly) valid comparison. (Yes, CI doesn't change when you change the colour of the commander - but it also doesn't matter because CI only limits your deck building, not during game play - because, as you noted, you can use Spelljack to cast a card of any colour.)

Necrachilles wrote:
Again, back to your table/deck building logic. "Once you get to the table, and start the game, you've satisfied those deck building restrictions." You literally just agreed with wishes being legal right here. Because effectively, you can no longer use "well wishing cards in breaks the 100 card limit". So, why are we even arguing if we agree?

Because you're being obtuse. So very obtuse (which is why it's getting used thoroughly in this post.) Where are you getting the cards you wish for from? From our SB? SB would be above 100 cards. From your collection? Probably more than the 100 card limit.

The "Bringing to the table" implies that you don't need anything outside of it. So saying that you are bringing your 100 card deck to the table, and then wishing for a card outside of that is disingenuous.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-01 8:48 am 
EDH Rules Committee

Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
This is getting too snippy folks. Time to calm down.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-19 12:30 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
Necrachilles wrote:
Besides, color identity is only checked during construction/start of match.
Ohh... so, you know this... but can't seem to grasp that your deck size restriction is also only checked during construction/start of the match? Or do you really need things to be spelled out in front of you?

Necrachilles wrote:
So you changing colors technically doesn't change the color identity in the first place. Good try though.

So how does using Spelljack break the 100 card limit? Because thats the exact same thing (apparently you do need it spelled out).

Both Colour Identity and the Deck Size Limit are deck building restrictions. They limit how you build your deck. Once you start playing the game, those no longer apply. That's why the comparison to colour identity is a (mostly) valid comparison. (Yes, CI doesn't change when you change the colour of the commander - but it also doesn't matter because CI only limits your deck building, not during game play - because, as you noted, you can use Spelljack to cast a card of any colour.)

Necrachilles wrote:
Again, back to your table/deck building logic. "Once you get to the table, and start the game, you've satisfied those deck building restrictions." You literally just agreed with wishes being legal right here. Because effectively, you can no longer use "well wishing cards in breaks the 100 card limit". So, why are we even arguing if we agree?

Because you're being obtuse. So very obtuse (which is why it's getting used thoroughly in this post.) Where are you getting the cards you wish for from? From our SB? SB would be above 100 cards. From your collection? Probably more than the 100 card limit.

The "Bringing to the table" implies that you don't need anything outside of it. So saying that you are bringing your 100 card deck to the table, and then wishing for a card outside of that is disingenuous.

Would you mind spelling it out a little further. I'm not quite following this line of argument for a few reasons which I know you'll be happy to address:

1. Cards outside the game have nothing to do with deckbuilding restrictions even if you bring them to the table with the intention of somehow using them.
2. Presenting 100 cards as your deck and then wishing for a 101st can't possibly be inherently disingenuous (or bullying according to Sheldon; wtf) if all players understand that the rules allow it (assuming wishing were allowed).
3. If the 100 card limit is only checked at the beginning of the game, it shouldn't matter if it becomes 101 in the middle of the game, unless the restriction somehow also applies to games begun as a result of restarting with Karn Liberated. Is that the case?

The anti-wish side of this debate has some strong arguments behind it, but imo "it breaks the 100-card limit" is by far the weakest one because of its sheer arbitrariness. By itself, this particular argument seems just plain irrelevant, as would any other overused argument that chronically begs for a "So what?"

So how/why am I wrong here?

_________________
.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-19 2:27 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
If you have wishes in the deck then it is extremely likely you have one or more cards you plan to fetch with a wish. This means your list exceeds 100. Its not breaking any rules, but it is circumventing the intent of the 100 card limit.

_________________
3DH4L1F3


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mastermind's Acquisition - Can we haz sideboardz now?
AgePosted: 2018-May-19 2:35 am 
User avatar

Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Carthain wrote:
So how does using Spelljack break the 100 card limit? Because thats the exact same thing (apparently you do need it spelled out).


I actually have an answer for this one...

There is a set number of cards at the table at the beginning of the game. It is N x 100, where N is the number of players in the game. Therefore, Spelljack is not breaking the 100 card limit, as the card was already in the game when the game started.

Wishes (and by extension sideboards/wishboards) increase that number to N x 100 + Total cards in wishboards therefore breaking the 100 card limit.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 226 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron