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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-17 9:57 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
while it doesn't outright kill fast mana it's kinda pointless to use them if your opponent drops any of the Sphere of Resistance or Blind Obedience.

Blind Obedience delays it one turn, and facing down a Sphere is a good reason to want a mana rock in play. Sol Ring is still broken at 2 mana.

Part of the problem with the fastest of the fast (and mana rocks in general) is that they feed into each other. A card like Fellwar Stone is far more powerful than Rampant Growth or Utopia Tree or even Coldsteel Heart because it can give you the mana immediately. Superficially the cards all do roughly the same thing, except only with Fellwar and friends can you do stuff like Crypt -> Fellwar -> Vault -> Land -> General. When trying to fight against stupid plays like this one, cards like these are lifesavers. Not to mention that Sphere also makes a lot of the weaker fast mana like Lotus Petal, Jeweled Amulet, or most Rituals completely useless.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-18 1:23 pm 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Right, but it doesn't make them pointless, it makes some a lot worse and it makes a couple of them 'fair'. It stops the craziest of plays like a turn one 4/5cmc commander, but if you are playing sphere i hope i have the mana acceleration. Lotus Petal seems garbage vs Sphere but it's still a one-use Birds of Paradise, and as bad as that is, i don't know anyone who plays Lotus Petal and would decline to still put that acceleration into play for a later use, even if they are delayed one or more turns. They do both kind fight each other back and forth in that way. One of my recent poor deck building choices was not playing Sol Ring in a couple vintage events and having to face Workshops.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-23 3:26 am 
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I've never been an advocate of banning these cards. Certainly not on the basis of early kills. Cutthroat players are gonna find a way to cut your throat, regardless of fast mana.

But I also don't really see the *harm* in banning cards that are virtually never interesting or helpful to games of commander. Cards like Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, and Grim Monolith are, quite frankly, stupid cards. They should not exist, and they only serve to make games less interesting, especially games where multiple of them are drawn. Sol Ring is also obviously in this category, but it's realistically immune to banning at this point, due to it's "Icon of the Format" status. (The same way Brainstorm persists in legacy despite being an absurdly overpowered card.)

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-23 7:33 pm 

Joined: 2015-Apr-23 11:27 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Sol Ring and consorts don't win games, but they sure push games in a certain direction. In five player games in our group, about half the time there is someone with a Sol Ring out first turn. Usually that player gets way ahead, and either forces the others to gang up on him and gets killed quickly, or runs away with the game.

Even worse when it's the other way around, two or three players get fast mana, take the game to a new pace, and the unlucky guys who didn't draw into fast mana just have to tag along and hope to survive long enough.

Cards like Ring and Crypt don't bother me that much, but I do feel our games would be better without them.

A while back, we experimented with a house rule making mana rocks that cost two or less come into play tapped, it actually worked quite well. It doesn't make the cards unplayable, but prevents chaining into mana advantage.

We also tried to have everyone put a Sol Ring in their command zone, that didn't work at all :-)


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 5:41 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
I've never been an advocate of banning these cards. Certainly not on the basis of early kills. Cutthroat players are gonna find a way to cut your throat, regardless of fast mana.


This nothing against *you*, but this is the worst argument i've ever heard for anything in commander and it keeps coming up all the time.

The problem with this argument is that if you ban the top 5 mana rocks (let's say Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox? this doesn't matter, just making an example), people who play cutthroat still get to play cutthroat but they also probably can't kill you as early anymore (and certainly not nearly as consistently).

All they add is a coinflip mechanic where sometimes someone gets to start very far ahead of everyone else.

The argument "cutthroat players will still find a way to cut your throat" seems defeatist. Just because something bad can happen sometimes and the format is overall good, doesn't mean it cannot be better, and it doesn't mean no one should try to make it better.

This applies to combos as well. Every time someone wants a combo banned, someone else says "spikey players will just use another combo". Yes, and if you take away the best combos, that person is still slowed down. For the record, right now, i don't think there are any combo cards that need to be banned so i'm not speaking of anything in particular. This happens in other formats. Splinter Twin was deemed too powerful/fast/uninteractive for Modern and it was banned. This doesn't stop people from playing the next best thing, but the best thing isn't as powerful and it's more balanced now. Why are we afraid of that in this format? There are cards with scarcely any legitimate casual purpose and are piles of shit in competitive play, and outside of combos this applies to the most broken of mana rocks.

If cutthroat players are gonna cut your throat regardless, the problem (which is mostly who you are playing against) is going to be mitigated if you and the rest of the pod consistently have a couple extra turns to interact and no one can open hands that put them at 4-7 on turn 2-3. Unfortunately not everyone has the luxury of picking their play partners consistently and house rules are foolish and have low portability.

kaldare wrote:
Grim Monolith

I generally think of Grim Monolith as fine and not an auto include actually. What is your problem with it?

Nigerian Prince wrote:
Sol Ring and consorts don't win games, but they sure push games in a certain direction.

You don't consider that to count as winning the game?

Nigerian Prince wrote:
In five player games in our group, about half the time there is someone with a Sol Ring out first turn.

Your first sentence reminds me of an argument for why Sol Ring is okay to be legal, "you only have roughly a 7% chance to draw it in your opening hand". Not that you are making this argument but when i hear that, i wonder why people don't consider games are played 4 (or like you sometimes 5) people at a time mostly, and maybe a couple times. That it makes it very likely to see a Sol Ring. It's also very likely to see something stupid if all 4 decks have Vault and Crypt as well. Now, don't forget we have 1 free mulligan and we effectively start with 8 cards.

Nigerian Prince wrote:
Usually that player gets way ahead, and either forces the others to gang up on him and gets killed quickly, or runs away with the game.

I don't know why this sounds fun or acceptable to some people. Neither of those options seem great and this kind of coinflip tension is just manufactured.

Nigerian Prince wrote:
We also tried to have everyone put a Sol Ring in their command zone, that didn't work at all :-)

The problem with stuff like Sol Ring is that the game is not balanced because everyone has one in their deck. It's worse because everyone has one in their deck.

(Edited by mod to fix formatting issues)


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-24 9:05 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
The problem with this argument is that if you ban the top 5 mana rocks (let's say Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, Mana Vault, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox? this doesn't matter, just making an example), people who play cutthroat still get to play cutthroat but they also probably can't kill you as early anymore (and certainly not nearly as consistently).


Frankly, the type of player who's going to turn 2 kill the table is, 9 times out of 10 (or more), the same type who's going to be utterly miserable to play against even when they don't kill the table turn 2. I take the super fast combo wins as a blessing, because it tells me "Oh, you're not the type of person I want to play commander against. Goodbye." People playing cutthroat prison decks are *far* more annoying to me then then ones who just win immediately.

Anyway, like I said originally, banning the mana rocks isn't a bad idea. as they don't really *ever* make games more interesting. (And they certainly do ruin games on occasion.) But I'm afraid Sol Ring is off limits. It's the icon of the format and it isn't going anywhere no matter how much a vocal minority of people on the internet whine about it.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-28 12:03 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
kaldare wrote:
Frankly, the type of player who's going to turn 2 kill the table is, 9 times out of 10 (or more), the same type who's going to be utterly miserable to play against even when they don't kill the table turn 2. I take the super fast combo wins as a blessing, because it tells me "Oh, you're not the type of person I want to play commander against. Goodbye." People playing cutthroat prison decks are *far* more annoying to me then then ones who just win immediately.
I can appreciate a format where casual playgroups use political maneuvering during gameplay to single out overpowered strategies and use their experience to make their decks more resilient. I can also appreciate a format that encourage players to work around different rulesets like a side-quest-oriented point system across multiple games, a budget limitation, or a refined banlist for the playgroup. But a format that endorses a moralistic and passive aggressive attitude towards Spike players and advocates a self-righteous "blame the human, not the game" mentality? No thanks. The point of the rules of any game is to maintain order in chaos and maximize fun in a competition of minds. If the game or its rules fail to do that, the solution is to make better rules or play a different game, not shun/shame the player for not playing by our vaguely described expectations.

Quote:
Anyway, like I said originally, banning the mana rocks isn't a bad idea. as they don't really *ever* make games more interesting. (And they certainly do ruin games on occasion.) But I'm afraid Sol Ring is off limits. It's the icon of the format and it isn't going anywhere no matter how much a vocal minority of people on the internet whine about it.
Perhaps they don't all have to be banned. I'd personally like to make a case for banning Mana Crypt and Flash.

Mana Crypt: No, it isn't expensive. It probably won't ever see a $150 price tag again. Having said that, it's the only legal 0-drop mana rock with no guaranteed downside. All the other ones either cost you card advantage like Chrome Mox or are one shot effects like Lotus Petal, and they usually only produce one mana. Mana Crypt gives you two, and its downside is only theoretical. It may damage you, or it may not. If everyone had one, it would be in almost every deck. It is certainly in every one of mine, even in the ones where a Sol Ring wouldn't make as much sense. The fact that it's free just makes it better period. I realize that there are other 0-drops out there, but banning just Mana Crypt would not accomplish nothing (double-negative intended).

Flash: I admit I have a weaker case here than I do for banning Mana Crypt, but I don't think that a broken and easily abused card should stay unbanned merely because playgroups can guilt players out of using them. Flash is, by far, the best reason to have a 0-drop on turn one, and no that doesn't just apply to competitive play. Do you want to see Woodfall Primus double trigger? Do you want to see Academy Rector fetch a Mirari's Wake or Omniscience at instant speed (on turn ONE)? Flash also gets better late game. Does a two mana instant speed board wipe with False Prophet or Kederect Leviathan appeal to everyone? Will players like it if you trade Greenwarden of Murasa and Flash for any two cards in your graveyard right before your turn?

...Y'know, I'm starting to like Flash now. NEVER MIND. Ignore all that. I'll just stick it in my Derevi deck... along with this Hulk thing.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-29 9:17 am 
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MMLgamer wrote:
advocates a self-righteous "blame the human, not the game" mentality?


I'm not sure you understand the concept of casual gameplay. If you try to break any game that isn't meant to be particularly competitive, you'll likely succeed. Games like that don't (and shouldn't) decrease their overall enjoyment factor by trying to account for every way a mean spirited Grinch can wreak the game if they set out to do that.

Commander is designed and maintained in that manner, which seems to confound a small subset of players such as yourself simply because it's not how most other formats are handled. But it makes sense for commander, because commander (unlike the other major formats in Magic) isn't designed to be a balanced competitive format played in tournaments. If you treat it as if it were any other format, you're gonna have issues, but that's not because the format has problems, it's because you're not using the format the way it's intended to be used. If my spoon doesn't cut cheese well, it's not because the spoon maker did something wrong, it's because I'm drunk and trying to cut cheese with a freaking spoon.

_________________
Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-29 9:23 am 

Joined: 2013-Apr-02 12:46 pm
Age: Wyvern
I believe it would be in the best interest of the format for the Rules Committee to ban the 0-cost mana rocks in Commander. In my opinion they are really where the fissure between Commander and Competitive EDH (cEDH) begins.

I love the Lab Maniacs YouTube channel but they are not playing the same game my friends and I play. Their style of cEDH is to what I recognize as Commander as Legacy is to Modern Their decks have a speed AND consistency you simply cannot reach without those rocks .

I've been very fortunate in that I have had a consistent play group since 2012. We have evolved and become more competitive over time but we are nowhere near the level of competition or monetary investment of the cEDH crowd. None of us really enjoying playing stax, most games are over with between turns 8-12, and while we have decks that go infinite/play alternative win conditions, we lack the speed and consistency to achieve such a win in the early turns before boards can be developed. I believe Sheldon once stated something to the effect that everything is fair on turn ten, and that's how we play.

In summary, I really see cEDH and Commander as two different formats and ask the Rules Committee to please consider removing the format warping mana rocks in the next announcement.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-29 2:06 pm 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
Mr.Mauler wrote:
In summary, I really see cEDH and Commander as two different formats and ask the Rules Committee to please consider removing the format warping mana rocks in the next announcement.
Commander has never cared what the competitive players do, as the ban list isn't for them, and likely will never be.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-29 4:02 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
kaldare wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
advocates a self-righteous "blame the human, not the game" mentality?


I'm not sure you understand the concept of casual gameplay. If you try to break any game that isn't meant to be particularly competitive, you'll likely succeed. Games like that don't (and shouldn't) decrease their overall enjoyment factor by trying to account for every way a mean spirited Grinch can wreak the game if they set out to do that.

Commander is designed and maintained in that manner, which seems to confound a small subset of players such as yourself simply because it's not how most other formats are handled. But it makes sense for commander, because commander (unlike the other major formats in Magic) isn't designed to be a balanced competitive format played in tournaments. If you treat it as if it were any other format, you're gonna have issues, but that's not because the format has problems, it's because you're not using the format the way it's intended to be used. If my spoon doesn't cut cheese well, it's not because the spoon maker did something wrong, it's because I'm drunk and trying to cut cheese with a freaking spoon.
Small subset of players, huh? Where do you get your numbers?

It's one thing to not cater to certain playgroups. It's another thing entirely to stick the word "casual" in front of everything to ignore a fundamental problem with the format. Yes, there will always be cutthroat players, but there need not always be highly synergistic, highly consistent, turn 1-2 kill cards. That's just poor format management, and I'm not talking just about how other formats are handled; its how all multiplayer versus games are supposed to work, and however EDH is handled, it was clearly designed to be a multiplayer game with winners and losers. I am not looking at a spoon and demanding that it be remade into a knife; I'm looking at a knife that tries and utterly fails to imitate a spoon.

The game philosophy calls for communication between players about what they expect from the game, and it encourages the use of house rules. Nowhere in that does it say that we should moralize the gameplay and villainize players for not playing the "most widely accepted" playstyles. Tastes are subjective, and the format needs to acknowledge and respect that. If the game fails to meet expectations, it is up to the player to find a solution in the form of house rules or house bans.

Having said all that, not all players are like-minded, reasonable and/or capitulate. If they were, there would be no need for a banlist or an anti-wish rule at all. The Rules Committee could simply stick an insert on the site that says, "Players must decide the scope of the card pool before playing, and here are some recommendations for you to maybe consider."

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-29 10:50 pm 
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MMLgamer wrote:
kaldare wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
advocates a self-righteous "blame the human, not the game" mentality?


I'm not sure you understand the concept of casual gameplay. If you try to break any game that isn't meant to be particularly competitive, you'll likely succeed. Games like that don't (and shouldn't) decrease their overall enjoyment factor by trying to account for every way a mean spirited Grinch can wreak the game if they set out to do that.

Commander is designed and maintained in that manner, which seems to confound a small subset of players such as yourself simply because it's not how most other formats are handled. But it makes sense for commander, because commander (unlike the other major formats in Magic) isn't designed to be a balanced competitive format played in tournaments. If you treat it as if it were any other format, you're gonna have issues, but that's not because the format has problems, it's because you're not using the format the way it's intended to be used. If my spoon doesn't cut cheese well, it's not because the spoon maker did something wrong, it's because I'm drunk and trying to cut cheese with a freaking spoon.
Small subset of players, huh? Where do you get your numbers?

It's one thing to not cater to certain playgroups. It's another thing entirely to stick the word "casual" in front of everything to ignore a fundamental problem with the format. Yes, there will always be cutthroat players, but there need not always be highly synergistic, highly consistent, turn 1-2 kill cards. That's just poor format management, and I'm not talking just about how other formats are handled; its how all multiplayer versus games are supposed to work, and however EDH is handled, it was clearly designed to be a multiplayer game with winners and losers. I am not looking at a spoon and demanding that it be remade into a knife; I'm looking at a knife that tries and utterly fails to imitate a spoon.

The game philosophy calls for communication between players about what they expect from the game, and it encourages the use of house rules. Nowhere in that does it say that we should moralize the gameplay and villainize players for not playing the "most widely accepted" playstyles. Tastes are subjective, and the format needs to acknowledge and respect that. If the game fails to meet expectations, it is up to the player to find a solution in the form of house rules or house bans.

Having said all that, not all players are like-minded, reasonable and/or capitulate. If they were, there would be no need for a banlist or an anti-wish rule at all. The Rules Committee could simply stick an insert on the site that says, "Players must decide the scope of the card pool before playing, and here are some recommendations for you to maybe consider."


This is actually something I've been struggling with myself.

I have a FLGS and an offshoot playgroup that I play EDH with. The FLGS players tend to understand it's a casual for-fun format. The offshoot playgroup was created by one guy who really understands that, and he grabbed some other people who he thought would be great playing with each other.

We've got a pretty lively environment but I've been having a lot of non-fun games recently and I'm not sure how to resolve it. I have some decks I've considered fun, but the people I've been sitting down with have often been playing super cutthroat decks, or super chaosy decks ("nobody can have a gameplan anymore" is not a fun state for me), or Enchantment-based lockdown decks (multicolor "nobody can do anything, also, I have Sphere of Protection"), or someone's got out Dictate of Erebos plus Grave Pact plus Ob Nixilis, Unshackled plus Spreading Plague plus Bloodchief Ascension. Then there's the player who plays a Scion of the Ur-Dragon deck that begins lasering us down with exponential Utvara Hellkite tokens from turn 6 or 7, and a couple of powerful combat-damage-doubler-plus-extra-combat-rounds Zurgo Helmsmasher decks, and ironically, I am beginning to enjoy the Zurgo and Scion decks more than any of the others despite being the spikiest -- because they are at least not shutting down games and reducing peoples' ability to have a meaningful impact on the game to near zero, and when they do, it's because they actually defeated that player outright.

(I haven't ever seen mass enchantment removal come up in any of these cases, so I'm planning on putting a Merciless Eviction and Bane of Progress in my next decks at the very least.)

I've made decks that are fun for me to play. I have and use preconstructed C16 decks (more recently, very slightly modified to the tune of ~5 cards each), and decks on par with those in power level. I struggle in this environment though, and I'm struggling with figuring out what to do next to be able to contribute powerfully in this environment. It's hard to tell, in this FLGS or even that playgroup that gets it, how I should make a deck that is both fun for me and others, whilst also competitive with those decks, whilst also not as oppressive as those decks toward people with a little less power in their decks than mine.

I cannot simply ask those people "don't play that deck." I can politely decline to play versus them when they're using a specific deck I don't like, but right now that is becoming a lot of decks. I can't point to any one card they're using, either, except maybe Thieves' Auction being the worst of the chaos "stop having a game plan now" cards. (I can tolerate seeing it once every now and then... but at least two people have it, and recently someone put out Eye of the Storm, and was considering whether they wanted to cast Decree of Annihilation into it or Thieves' Auction. I scooped and left the game at that point and told them I was not enjoying that deck they were playing; another player scooped at the same time. The chaos deck player's response was, okay, but, someone else they play with does like it, so they weren't sure what to do.)

I'm trying to make memorable games and avoid having games I'd rather forget, and I'd like to believe so are they. But I'm getting more games I'd rather forget than even passable games, let alone memorable fun games.

Now, granted, this thread is about 0 mana rocks. I'll bring this tangent back to that topic.

It is fair to say it's a casual format, and the rules and ban list are doing good stuff right now. However the format being casual & social, or the banlist, or the philosophy document, or the rules, are not providing me or these playgroups with the tools to address this situation, nor are they preventing it. I'm not sure how to address the environment at my FLGS or at the playgroup and plan to reach out for advice from the guy who started the playgroup. If I can't work something out I'm not sure I want to keep playing this format with those groups, which effectively means, not playing this format at all until such time I find another group.

I am not sure what should be changed, but "there is something more the rules could be doing to shepherd the format" resonates pretty strongly with me at this point. As Sovarius said:

Quote:
The argument "cutthroat players will still find a way to cut your throat" seems defeatist. Just because something bad can happen sometimes and the format is overall good, doesn't mean it cannot be better, and it doesn't mean no one should try to make it better.


I wouldn't blink at the 0-mana rocks being banned. They haven't been the parts of my problems, but they're not exactly going to contribute to fun games are they?

I feel like there's more room for the commander rules & guidance to develop. There's an area of need it isn't filling, at least from my perspective. I'm doing my best but I'm struggling with the format here at this point. I don't know how it should change at the moment beyond giving more concrete guidance in the philosophy document somehow; I'm thinking about it. I have cards I'd ban but it's hard to know whether I'm being objective and I don't have the breadth of experience many others have.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-29 11:59 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
spacemonaut wrote:
This is actually something I've been struggling with myself.

[[...]]

I feel like there's more room for the commander rules & guidance to develop. There's an area of need it isn't filling, at least from my perspective. I'm doing my best but I'm struggling with the format here at this point. I don't know how it should change at the moment beyond giving more concrete guidance in the philosophy document somehow; I'm thinking about it. I have cards I'd ban but it's hard to know whether I'm being objective and I don't have the breadth of experience many others have.
I suggest you discuss this with your playgroup first, but maybe you could build a Tasigur deck or Azami/Arcanis wizard control deck with a special emphasis on control either way (you can include zero or minimal combos and cards like Swan Song, Spell Pierce, Annul, Dispel, Counterspell, Pongify, Rapid Hybridization, all the bounce, etc). Tasigur in particular is fun because you can ask an opponent for an answer to the cutthroat player. You can break it out when it looks like a cutthroat player comes along. Then, if they don't like being the only ones in the playgroup who can't play magic, you can say that you don't like them being the only ones who CAN play magic. If anything, it's a conversation starter. "I'll play a more fun deck if you do, too."

The problem I was talking about earlier though was a problem that undermines the sort of measure I described above. It's going to be difficult to combat such problems simply by running more interaction if the cutthroat guy is winning because he played a Mana Crypt and skipped ahead to his three-mana curve or because he was able to play Flash for the cheap two-mana enter/death mega-trigger and take over the game with the resulting value (I'd honestly like to know if anyone plays those two cards for any other purpose).

I think banning those two cards in particular would be a good enough answer, because those two cards are the worst offenders of their kind and are arguably even worse than many of the cards already on the list. Banning just Mana Crypt would both make those decks less consistent and send the proper message about 0-drop mana, and banning Flash would push the earliest consistent win (or de facto win anyway) back to turn three. From there, the worst legal offender would be Hermit Druid (particularly in Golgari-colored strategies), but that is not nearly as hard to deal with.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-30 12:40 am 
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Ok, maybe I was just struggling with something that sounded similar. :)

Thanks for the suggestions. Come to think of it I've been trying to figure out what to do with a Jeskai-colored deck, maybe that's what I should be doing. (Red for redirection or copy, blue-white for Mirrorweave and Fractured Identity, red-white for a bit of combat manipulation, etc.)

I'll be reaching out to the playgroup for some advice.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-30 1:57 am 

Joined: 2013-Apr-02 12:46 pm
Age: Wyvern
Marit Lage wrote:
Commander has never cared what the competitive players do, as the ban list isn't for them, and likely will never be.


And that's kind of my point. Commander and cEDH really are two different formats and banning the fast mana out of the format would make that clear. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy Magic, and established groups are going to work it out on their own. However, I feel it would make pickup games a lot easier and more enjoyable for all if the ban list reflected that we don't want to enable turn two Flash Hulk/Hermit Druid etc...


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