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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-30 9:00 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
Mr.Mauler wrote:
And that's kind of my point. Commander and cEDH really are two different formats and banning the fast mana out of the format would make that clear.


You *say* you get it, but you really don't seem to. The fast mana is a serious issue in cEDH, while in commander it tends to be just an annoyance. While I support some limited mana rock bans (they don't really add much to games, and when drawn in multiples often cause very bad games), to achieve the kind of balance cEDH players want would require a banned list of well over 100 cards. Which could hurt the format for everyone else and quite possible even lead to it's demise.

spacemonaut wrote:
It is fair to say it's a casual format, and the rules and ban list are doing good stuff right now. However the format being casual & social, or the banlist, or the philosophy document, or the rules, are not providing me or these playgroups with the tools to address this situation, nor are they preventing it

None of the scenarios you describe are remotely solvable by the RC no matter how many cards they banned. Chaos decks aren't even powerful, you just don't happen to like how they play. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to play them, it means you need to find people to play with that think the way you do about them.

MMLgamer wrote:
Yes, there will always be cutthroat players, but there need not always be highly synergistic, highly consistent, turn 1-2 kill cards.

You fundamentally misunderstand how the format is designed and managed. There are 100s of broken and unfun things people can do if they're trying. Removing options from people not trying to break things in order to police people who can't realistically be policed is not something the RC does. They ban cards that have a very high tendency to ruin games regardless of player intent. If people are *trying* to end the game on turn 2, that's on them. And heck, some groups *want* to play that way.

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-30 9:53 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
It is fair to say it's a casual format, and the rules and ban list are doing good stuff right now. However the format being casual & social, or the banlist, or the philosophy document, or the rules, are not providing me or these playgroups with the tools to address this situation, nor are they preventing it

None of the scenarios you describe are remotely solvable by the RC no matter how many cards they banned. Chaos decks aren't even powerful, you just don't happen to like how they play. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be able to play them, it means you need to find people to play with that think the way you do about them.


Yes, that is kind of the point, I don't like how they play. I'm not even complaining they're powerful. But I'm also unable to figure out how to play fulfullingly in the environments I'm describing — and hoping speaking with the organiser of one can help give me some guidance. They're the only two I'm even aware of in my locale.

I'm not asking them to ban cards to fix that issue (the one solution I mentioned involved no banning or even rules changes).

I'd also not ask chaos decks to be prohibited or anything. There's techniques in the tabletop RPG sphere to identify and resolve and navigate philosophical differences though and their impact on play... I could look into how we can apply some of those in this arena.

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Decks: Chaos colored dragons, Mathas, the Instigator (politics and mayhem).
Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-30 10:20 am 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
kaldare wrote:
You fundamentally misunderstand how the format is designed and managed. There are 100s of broken and unfun things people can do if they're trying. Removing options from people not trying to break things in order to police people who can't realistically be policed is not something the RC does. They ban cards that have a very high tendency to ruin games regardless of player intent. If people are *trying* to end the game on turn 2, that's on them. And heck, some groups *want* to play that way.
I think you fundamentally misunderstood my argument. Are you saying that there are 100 ways to win as early as turn 1? List them for me. You can't just mesh together all "broken things" as if a Tooth and Nail entwined on Turn 6 is the same as a Protean Hulk trigger on turn 1. They are not the same, and they shouldn't be treated the same. At least with turn 3+ combos, players have MANY more ways to deal with it.

Just saying that it can't be policed isn't a sufficient argument, because if such broken things shouldn't be banned, why have a banlist at all? Presumably, the banlist contains the "worst offenders", but as long as this combo exists, it actually doesn't. You could unban Coalition Victory and it wouldn't even matter, because it wouldn't be nearly as efficient as Flash and if a player wanted to win that way, "that's on them", right?

I asked in my last post if anyone used Flash for things other than getting an easy ETB/death mega-trigger. I this would be a more persuasive line of argument. Cards like Leovold get banned because they are hard to play casually and end up warping the game by inadvertence. How do you play Flash casually without rendering it unhelpful to your strategy? Also, how do you play Mana Crypt and still engage in balanced gameplay when your curve is ahead of your opponent's curve by 2 right from the start? Oh, and don't forget to list those 100s of turn 1 win combos.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-30 12:07 pm 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
Are you saying that there are 100 ways to win as early as turn 1? List them for me. You can't just mesh together all "broken things" as if a Tooth and Nail entwined on Turn 6 is the same as a Protean Hulk trigger on turn 1.

You demonstrate that you know that's not what he's saying. Yet you felt the need to refer to it as if it is twice in your post.

And yes, he can mesh them all together, as he's talking about something more general than what you are talking about. In a Venn diagram, your "turn 1-2 combos" is a subset of "broken things" of which kaldare is talking about.

And you understand that is what he's referring to - yet instead of trying to keep the focus on the subset you are talking about and what makes it special and worthy of more care via the ban list - you instead end up trying to straw-man his point.

Did you know that the RC did at one point ban those small/fast combos that could cause early combos to beat a table of (virtually) any size? Did you know that they intentionally changed their minds and decided not to try and police those kinds of things?


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-30 12:59 pm 

Joined: 2013-Apr-02 12:46 pm
Age: Wyvern
kaldare wrote:
You *say* you get it, but you really don't seem to. The fast mana is a serious issue in cEDH, while in commander it tends to be just an annoyance. While I support some limited mana rock bans (they don't really add much to games, and when drawn in multiples often cause very bad games), to achieve the kind of balance cEDH players want would require a banned list of well over 100 cards. Which could hurt the format for everyone else and quite possible even lead to it's demise.


Actually, I don't think the ban list needs to be huge. All you need to do is take away the speed and consistency of the most degenerate combos that can end/lock down the game routinely before the 4th turn.

I love both the Lab Maniacs and the Command Zone, but they're absolutely playing two different games. I honestly don't think it would be a bad thing to help grow the community by acknowledging that. A tighter ban list and letting cEDH be its own thing is a good thing for everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-30 7:34 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:

And you understand that is what he's referring to - yet instead of trying to keep the focus on the subset you are talking about and what makes it special and worthy of more care via the ban list - you instead end up trying to straw-man his point.

Did you know that the RC did at one point ban those small/fast combos that could cause early combos to beat a table of (virtually) any size? Did you know that they intentionally changed their minds and decided not to try and police those kinds of things?
If the RC did that at one point, then it means the format wasn't "designed" with the current philosophy in mind. Also, I'm not strawmanning anything. The phrase "worst offenders" is the term THEY used on their philosophy page. Clearly, the RC draws a distinction between certain "broken things" merely by having a banlist, and that is where your argument falls apart.

EDIT: If by strawman, you mean his reference to the 100s of broken combos, if he thought I was singling out a combo for its general brokenness, then he's the one who misunderstood my argument. I was singling out a "turn 1" broken combo. I, for obvious reasons, don't regard a turn 1 win combo in the same way I regard a turn 3 win combo. The number of answers players can have for the latter is exponentially higher. I didn't go too much into this, because I thought it was obvious enough to be self-explainitory. If he's meshing them together and saying I just want to attack broken combos, then he's the one creating strawmen.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-31 4:05 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
If the RC did that at one point, then it means the format wasn't "designed" with the current philosophy in mind.

You think that the design can't change? That's short-sighted. I mean, if that's the case, let me enlighten you to some of the early rules on how EDH *should* be played:
* Each player chooses an "Elder Dragon Legend" as their commander
* Every person reserves that commander in their playgroup and uses only that one
* No other player may use your commander in their decks
* Starting life is 200/# of players
* Bring back rule #4
* Allow a lot of the now-banned things back in the format, as they weren't banned originally.

Do you see how ridiculous that argument is? Design, especially for something ongoing, is an ongoing process. You tweak and refine. To say that if the original design is different, then that's the grail of all design choices is so very flawed.

MMLgamer wrote:
Also, I'm not strawmanning anything.

" Are you saying that there are 100 ways to win as early as turn 1? List them for me."
"Oh, and don't forget to list those 100s of turn 1 win combos."

That would be the explicit part that I called out.

MMLgamer wrote:
The phrase "worst offenders" is the term THEY used on their philosophy page. Clearly, the RC draws a distinction between certain "broken things" merely by having a banlist, and that is where your argument falls apart.

That wasn't my argument - welcome back to stramanning.

And no - as I already explained, he's grouping what your talking about into a larger group, and then talking about that whole group. That's not stramanning. He didn't propose that you said something different, he just wasn't explicit that he was intentionally including the set of cards you were talking about in a larger group context.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-31 4:10 am 

Joined: 2016-Feb-13 2:14 pm
Age: Drake
Location: Orlando, Florida
Mr.Mauler wrote:
And that's kind of my point. Commander and cEDH really are two different formats and banning the fast mana out of the format would make that clear. There's no right or wrong way to enjoy Magic, and established groups are going to work it out on their own. However, I feel it would make pickup games a lot easier and more enjoyable for all if the ban list reflected that we don't want to enable turn two Flash Hulk/Hermit Druid etc...

There needs to be a push for cEDH to become it's own format, as attempting to balance EDH for a minority of players is going to kill the format. Talk to your opponents about the kind of games you want to play. Commander, by its very nature, shouldn't be balanced. The responsibility is on the players to decide together what kind of game to be played. And if they can't be bothered to do so, then it's likely better for you to find better opponents.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-31 6:42 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
Age: Drake
Carthain wrote:
You think that the design can't change? That's short-sighted. I mean, if that's the case, let me enlighten you to some of the early rules on how EDH *should* be played:
* Each player chooses an "Elder Dragon Legend" as their commander
* Every person reserves that commander in their playgroup and uses only that one
* No other player may use your commander in their decks
* Starting life is 200/# of players
* Bring back rule #4
* Allow a lot of the now-banned things back in the format, as they weren't banned originally.

Do you see how ridiculous that argument is? Design, especially for something ongoing, is an ongoing process. You tweak and refine. To say that if the original design is different, then that's the grail of all design choices is so very flawed.
What I understand is that you are muddying the line between "designing with rules in mind" and "designing with philosophy in mind" so that you can falsely associate my argument with an extreme that has nothing to do with this debate or what I actually said. I did not say we should ban a large amount of broken cards. I understand that tweaks and refinements are necessary, otherwise it would be silly of me to call for the ban of two cards (even if it's only two). If you acknowledge the need for refining an "ongoing process", why do you think that the tweaks I suggest go against the current philosophy but banning other cards doesn't, especially since many of those cards are not the worst of their kind and a better alternative to banning him, according to the new philosophy, would be for players to say, "If you play that, I'm not playing." Leovold specifically was a reletively recent edition. Can you tell me how banning an easily ashewable card like Leovold just for being a broken combo piece (but not the worst commander) and unbanning Protean Hulk, the king of broken turn 1 combos, was net positive under the new philosophy?
Quote:
Quote:
" Are you saying that there are 100 ways to win as early as turn 1? List them for me."
"Oh, and don't forget to list those 100s of turn 1 win combos."


That would be the explicit part that I called out.
Thank you for clarifying that. I wasn't sure what you were referring to since I wasn't really strawmanning. When it had occurred to me that you were referring to the "100s of combos" part, I edited my last post (I think before you replied to it, sorry if I'm wrong) to address it.

Asking what he meant by his argument is not strawmanning. It emphasizes the point that he misunderstood the post to which he responded in which I had already drawn a distinction between general combos and turn one combos. Since he was replying to that post, I must either conclude that he misunderstood my argument or that his argument took into account the points I made in my argument.
Quote:
And no - as I already explained, he's grouping what your talking about into a larger group, and then talking about that whole group. That's not stramanning. He didn't propose that you said something different, he just wasn't explicit that he was intentionally including the set of cards you were talking about in a larger group context.
If he didn't propose a conclusion about what I was saying then why did he claim that I misunderstood the philosophy? If he wasn't explicit about why he considered turn 1 combos and turn 3 combos as equals, then he wasn't actually addressing my point. You actually have to consider a person's points before you form a judgment on them.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-01 5:13 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
If he wasn't explicit about why he considered turn 1 combos and turn 3 combos as equals, then he wasn't actually addressing my point. You actually have to consider a person's points before you form a judgment on them.


I group all combos before turn 7 the same, and really if you combo on turn 7 I won't be super happy and will target you the next game. If one of the pieces to your combo is your commander, and there is not 4 other pieces, I will be very unlikely to play against you unless I am playing my Damia deck, because she was designed to go up against the hardest of the hard core (it was Leovold before he got banned. If I wanted games to end quickly I would not be playing multiplayer or EDH, I would be playing Legacy.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-01 5:21 am 
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Age: Elder Dragon
MMLgamer wrote:
Leovold specifically was a reletively recent edition. Can you tell me how banning an easily ashewable card like Leovold just for being a broken combo piece (but not the worst commander) and unbanning Protean Hulk, the king of broken turn 1 combos, was net positive under the new philosophy?

This is just flat out false. Leovold was not banned for being a broken combo piece, and he was the worst commander. He absolutely dominated the competitive sphere when he was released and for good reason. He was Sultai, arguably the best color combination. He was 3 mana and green, meaning it was trivial to get him out T2. He shut down pretty much every sorcery-speed draw spell in the entire game while also providing a powerful rattlesnake and potential CA engine if your opponents tried to remove him. And of course, there were the grand total of 11 cards that could be paired with him to effectively Monomania all of your opponents. He was at the sweet spot of being exceptionally fast, exceptionally powerful, exceptionally consistent, and the most resilient and flexible commander to ever be printed. He was to competitive EDH what Meta Knight was to competitive SSB Brawl. And worst of all, he was one of the few EDH generals to actually want to use insanely expensive cards like Tabernacle or Timetwister, so he made the "win with your wallet" problem of cEDH even worse.

But more importantly, he was so toxic of a general that even casual decks with him at the helm had the same problems. In particular control lists couldn't fight him since he effectively neutered half of their deck and turned the other half into card advantage for his player. And I reiterate: this is what he himself brought to the table. Even at the head of Elf tribal or He was nothing but a blight on the format and honestly should never have been printed in the first place, or maybe printed at a significantly higher casting cost.

Protean Hulk on the other hand is a card that CAN be abused by combo players specifically building the deck to do so, but outside of that it's mostly just a really strong and splashy value engine. It does have some annoying problems of its own (mostly just how sucky multi-tutors are in EDH as a whole), but in the end the RC decided those problems are outweighed by the benefits the card could bring to the format. It's not like Leovold where the problems it brings to competitive EDH are the same if not worse for everywhere else, and even if that was the case, it isn't your general.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-01 6:09 am 
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MMLgamer wrote:
Asking what he meant by his argument is not strawmanning.

Correct. However your following challenge (which was then repeated at the end of your post) was.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-01 6:40 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
kaldare wrote:
to achieve the kind of balance cEDH players want would require a banned list of well over 100 cards.

You might be off by a factor of 10. I don't know if that kind of exaggeration is helpful. A lot of cards that are commonly thought to be bannable aren't even good wholesome cards in casual play anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-01 9:26 am 
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Joined: 2010-Mar-12 3:20 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
You might be off by a factor of 10. I don't know if that kind of exaggeration is helpful. A lot of cards that are commonly thought to be bannable aren't even good wholesome cards in casual play anyway.


100 is an exaggeration... but not nearly as big of one as you seem to think. You see, when you ban cards for *balance* purposes, you then have to see what comes of that... and *very* often a whole new set of problematic cards will pop up that was being suppressed by the last group. So you have to ban *those* to maintain balance. And... well... you get it. Eventually you end up with a mostly-balanced format (at least in theory... normal rules of "balance" are hard to apply to multiplayer), but you have a whole bunch more banned cards... cards that may very well be perfectly fine for the vast majority of players and only cause problems in cEDH circles. Which is exactly the rabbit hole the RC has no interest in exploring.

MMLgamer wrote:
Can you tell me how banning an easily ashewable card like Leovold

Now I'm *very* confused. You can't be an actual cEDH player if you're claiming Hulk is even close in power level to Leovold. Leovold *dominated* the cEDH scene for the brief time he was legal. As a commander, he's utterly bonkers. There is a reason Leovold sees competitive play in both legacy and freaking Vintage. Getting guaranteed access to him just... kind of breaks magic. Because despite the prevelance of decks attempting to win very early, actual games of cEDH (just like actual games of Vintage) tend to take a good number of turns. Hulk is a clunky combo pierce that's easy to disrupt and requires putting garbage cards into your deck.

Carthain wrote:
There needs to be a push for cEDH to become it's own format, as attempting to balance EDH for a minority of players is going to kill the format

Well... I mean... it's *not*, because the RC (rightfully) isn't going to make the attempt. If cEDH players want a balanced format, they'll have to make it themselves.

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Current Commander Decks:
Alesha, She who Smiles at Death.....Atraxa, Praetors' Voice.....Eight-and-a-Half-Tails.....Gonti, Lord of Luxury.....Karametra, God of Harvests.....Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker.....Kozilek, the Great Distortion.....Prime Speaker Zegana.....Rubinia Soulsinger.....Thrasios, Triton Hero + Vial Smasher the Fierce

My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-01 9:34 am 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
There are some cEDH banlists out there, but they are all 1v1 formats. MTGO and French specifically. And I'd imagine that a pretty good chunk of those lists would look like a multiplayer list with some obvious exceptions (Eidolon of the Great Revel and Treachery come to mind as things that would never make it)

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