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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-01 4:09 pm 
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kaldare wrote:
Carthain wrote:
There needs to be a push for cEDH to become it's own format, as attempting to balance EDH for a minority of players is going to kill the format

Well... I mean... it's *not*, because the RC (rightfully) isn't going to make the attempt. If cEDH players want a balanced format, they'll have to make it themselves.

I just want it known that you're agreeing with Marit Lage there not me. :)


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-16 11:13 pm 

Joined: 2015-Dec-22 4:41 am
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
Leovold specifically was a reletively recent edition. Can you tell me how banning an easily ashewable card like Leovold just for being a broken combo piece (but not the worst commander) and unbanning Protean Hulk, the king of broken turn 1 combos, was net positive under the new philosophy?

This is just flat out false. Leovold was not banned for being a broken combo piece, and he was the worst commander. He absolutely dominated the competitive sphere when he was released and for good reason.

[...]
It's not false at all. I would rank Zur the Enchantor higher because can do every broken thing Leovold does and more. The problem here is that the opinion on he best cEDH general is highly subjective. Luckily for us, cEDH has already been ruled out as a factor for banning cards, so the rattlesnake Broken Combo nature of Leovold is irrelevant.

As for being a toxic casual commander, the general attitude towards toxic cards on this forum seems to be: if the problem can be solved on the playgroup level (i.e. house ban it), it doesn't need solving on a format level. I mentioned Leovold because he wasn't a commander I saw often, and the few times I did, he didn't win because the Leovold players didn't build him to be broken. It's funny how much not having Broken Combos can accomplish. Again, this is all subjective, but Leovold, at least for me, wasn't as big or as toxic a problem in casual as Zur or Narset.

Also, even if Leovold deserves to be banned more than Hulk does, that doesn't just validate Hulk's unbanning. You say the positives outweighed the negatives? What exactly were the positives of unbanning a mega tutor? The only time I ever see it is when it is doing something absurd. "It isn't your general." Irrelevant. With all the tutors available in the game, it's not difficult at all to make any card your pseudo-commander. "You need to build around Hulk to make it broken." No you don't. Hulk slots right into decks that already have the pieces, because the pieces are just good cards to have. Even if they aren't sufficient, how many cards would it take? A few tutors that you should have anyway? A revival creature that would be great in your deck anyway?

Finally, just to get back to the original topic, I'd like to clarify that I'm not calling for Hulk to be rebanned; I think Mana Crypt and Flash are bigger fishes to fry for reasons I already stated.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-17 5:15 am 
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MMLgamer wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
MMLgamer wrote:
Leovold specifically was a reletively recent edition. Can you tell me how banning an easily ashewable card like Leovold just for being a broken combo piece (but not the worst commander) and unbanning Protean Hulk, the king of broken turn 1 combos, was net positive under the new philosophy?

This is just flat out false. Leovold was not banned for being a broken combo piece, and he was the worst commander. He absolutely dominated the competitive sphere when he was released and for good reason.

[...]
It's not false at all. I would rank Zur the Enchanter higher because can do every broken thing Leovold does and more. The problem here is that the opinion on the best cEDH general is highly subjective.
This is again factually incorrect. When talking about a competitive format, there are objective standards for what makes something "better" than others, and those standards are also mathematically measurable. The best general would be the one that wins the most consistently against the widest variety of opponents. Leovold easily pulled that off, and also had the bonus of making dozens of generals unviable, either by outclassing them or hard countering them.

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As for being a toxic casual commander, the general attitude towards toxic cards on this forum seems to be: if the problem can be solved on the playgroup level (i.e. house ban it), it doesn't need solving on a format level. I mentioned Leovold because he wasn't a commander I saw often, and the few times I did, he didn't win because the Leovold players didn't build him to be broken. It's funny how much not having Broken Combos can accomplish. Again, this is all subjective, but Leovold, at least for me, wasn't as big or as toxic a problem in casual as Zur or Narset.

The difference is that when Zur or Narset becomes problematic, it's a player problem. Those generals do jack squat on their own and need powerful/annoying cards in the deck to cause headaches. You could build Leovold as a Relentless Rats tribal deck and he'd still be a problem. Just to give but one example, here's a list of generals that are effectively neutered any time he hits play:

And keep in mind, those are just the generals whom Leovold's presence completely ruins. I haven't even mentioned generals like Azami who's ability can only be used once each opponent's turn, or like Oloro who doesn't need the card advantage but heavily prefers to have it, or generals like The Locust God who tend to run a lot of big draw spells in their decks. There are few other generals that do such a good job of saying "you don't get to play your deck" to so many decks just by their mere existence, and none of them do it as effectively or without cost as Leovold. They're either like Maralen where the effect is symmetrical, expensive as hell like Jin-Gitaxias, lacking a reason to build around like Kataki, or obviously antisocial like Hokori.

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Also, even if Leovold deserves to be banned more than Hulk does, that doesn't just validate Hulk's unbanning. You say the positives outweighed the negatives? What exactly were the positives of unbanning a mega tutor? The only time I ever see it is when it is doing something absurd. "It isn't your general." Irrelevant. With all the tutors available in the game, it's not difficult at all to make any card your pseudo-commander. "You need to build around Hulk to make it broken." No you don't. Hulk slots right into decks that already have the pieces, because the pieces are just good cards to have. Even if they aren't sufficient, how many cards would it take? A few tutors that you should have anyway? A revival creature that would be great in your deck anyway?
This argument is just inconsistent, especially with your earlier statement about cEDH not being relevant to the banlist. What kind of "casual" deck is running so many tutors as to make any card your pseudo-general? And furthermore, the fact that Hulk is not a commander is relevant because unless you also saturate your deck with Riftsweeper effects a simple Swords to Plowshares or Tormod's Crypt can take it out of the game for good.

And as for building our deck around Hulk, you do in fact need to. So you run a revival creature in the deck, say Karmic Guide. Sac the Hulk, get Guide plus some random 1-drop and get Hulk back. At this point you haven't actually done anything broken, just a value play. And if you sac Hulk again, you can't actually do anything broken unless you search out Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, or Reveillark. And spoilers, none of them can even break the game unless you're already running cards that combo with them.

And third of all, it's kind of misleading to refer to Hulk as a multi-tutor, as if it's on the same level as cards like Tooth and Nail or Defense of the Heart or even Wild Pair. Those three are so prone to being stupid not just because they search up multiple creatures, but because they tend to sculpt winning board positions. And a large part of that is what they're able to search out and put into play. Most of the time the most "powerful" Hulk plays will actually be it searching out a single card, like Consecrated Sphinx or Dark Mike. Unlike other multi-tutors, the more cards Hulk gets the weaker they are. It's literally comparing something like Fleshbag Marauder+Merciless Executioner to Avenger of Zendikar+Craterhoof Behemoth.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-17 10:17 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
how would one saturate a deck with a Riftsweeper effects? Are there that many?

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-17 11:41 pm 
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Uktabi_Kong, I don't think I read that right, are you saying Hulk/Flash is not played?

Cause that is the only time I see Flash played... and Karmic Guide gets played in just about every White deck... so a w/g/x deck would very likely have that plus Eternal Witness etc.

I am not saying ban anything, but let's call an rose a rose, shall we?

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-18 2:45 am 
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According to EDHRec: Karmic Guide shows up rank #12 among exclusively white cards, and in 13% of all decks recorded by EDHRec. It is not however a mono-white staple, and mostly gets played by multicolor blink/renimator commanders. (Notably Sun Titan is more played but that's not in dispute and of course it is because it's amazing. Hulk can fetch it out as well, or fetch out Karmic Guide which reanimates Sun Titan which reanimates something else.)

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-18 5:10 am 
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How often do these Flash-Hulk piles go off on turn one? Genuinely curious. I play mostly with a couple friends and our decks definitely skew competitive. I feel like I'd rather just play Gitrog and rely on consistency and redundancy or Ad Nauseam with Zur than mess around with the prospect of occasionally pulling off a turn one win.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-18 8:17 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
And as for building our deck around Hulk, you do in fact need to.

If you're arguing that Hulk is not a problem because it needs build-around, I disagree. First off, it's incredibly naive to assume that it's just going to get tossed into random decks without build-around. Secondly, the sort of build-around it requires is the kind of stuff that people run tons of anyways; recursion, sac outlets, and having creatures in the deck. Not a high bar to clear.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
a simple Swords to Plowshares or Tormod's Crypt can take it out of the game for good.

Number one sign a card is broken - the "answers exist" argument. "It's fine, you can just get rid of it!". Come on man. Is someone going to try to go off with Hulk when there's a Tormod's Crypt on the table? I think not. Is that StP going to somehow prevent them from sacrificing it in response? Again, I think not. This bullcrap is probably easier to block with Strangehold than with removal, at least until the hulk player can answer the hold.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-18 1:39 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
And as for building our deck around Hulk, you do in fact need to.

If you're arguing that Hulk is not a problem because it needs build-around, I disagree. First off, it's incredibly naive to assume that it's just going to get tossed into random decks without build-around. Secondly, the sort of build-around it requires is the kind of stuff that people run tons of anyways; recursion, sac outlets, and having creatures in the deck. Not a high bar to clear.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
a simple Swords to Plowshares or Tormod's Crypt can take it out of the game for good.

Number one sign a card is broken - the "answers exist" argument. "It's fine, you can just get rid of it!". Come on man. Is someone going to try to go off with Hulk when there's a Tormod's Crypt on the table? I think not. Is that StP going to somehow prevent them from sacrificing it in response? Again, I think not. This bullcrap is probably easier to block with Strangehold than with removal, at least until the hulk player can answer the hold.

Why did you take both of these quotes so far out of context? The first quote was clearly that you need to specifically go out of your way to break it, not to be able to use it at all in the first place. Obviously Hulk is going to be put into decks that have creatures and recursion and whatnot, but there is a massive difference between Hulk being "good" or "powerful" and "game-breaking" or "unpleasant". The former two Hulk tends to be in virtually any deck it's run in while the latter takes intentional effort to create.

And the second point was specifically in regards to MMLgamer saying that "it isn't a general" is irrelevant. One of the most fundamental differences between generals and normal cards is the fact that answers are far less effective against generals than other cards. Going back to the Leovold vs Hulk comparison, I'm pretty sure Leo would still be legal today if he wasn't a legendary creature.

Inkeyes22 wrote:
Uktabi_Kong, I don't think I read that right, are you saying Hulk/Flash is not played?

Cause that is the only time I see Flash played... and Karmic Guide gets played in just about every White deck... so a w/g/x deck would very likely have that plus Eternal Witness etc.
I'm not saying that FlashHulk isn't played, but that it isn't broken unless you intentionally work for it. And as I mentioned before, Hulk+Karmic Guide isn't inherently a problem, nor is Hulk+Witness. Maybe I have an incredibly skewed idea of what's "broken" in the format, but those just seem like value plays to me. It turns stupid when you get something like Hulk+Guide+Kiki-Jiki+Conscripts or Hulk+Guide+Lark+Body Double.

Also, while I don't think it's actually relevant, I have seen Flash played outside of Hulk combo. It's honestly pretty underrated IMO, as there are a lot of powerful ETB/LTB/Death effects that are nice to get cheap/early on, and it also synergizes pretty well with cheap reanimation or reanimation generals.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-20 10:13 am 

Joined: 2009-Apr-21 3:38 pm
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Location: Palm Springs Area, CA
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
I'm not saying that FlashHulk isn't played...
I got this far into the sentence and starting thinking about all the cards I wished I could flash in sometimes- Kederekt Leviathan? Peregrin Drake? Sower of Temptation? Crud... all of my card...

Quote:
but that it isn't broken unless you intentionally work for it. And as I mentioned before, Hulk+Karmic Guide isn't inherently a problem, nor is Hulk+Witness. Maybe I have an incredibly skewed idea of what's "broken" in the format, but those just seem like value plays to me. It turns stupid when you get something like Hulk+Guide+Kiki-Jiki+Conscripts or Hulk+Guide+Lark+Body Double.

Also, while I don't think it's actually relevant, I have seen Flash played outside of Hulk combo. It's honestly pretty underrated IMO, as there are a lot of powerful ETB/LTB/Death effects that are nice to get cheap/early on, and it also synergizes pretty well with cheap reanimation or reanimation generals.

Then i looked up the price... I always thought it was pricey and never looked into it. $2-3 isn't terrible.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-21 4:10 am 
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I've played Flash in a couple different decks. Neither of which included Hulk (he wasn't even legal at the time.)

Flashing Craterhoof Behemoth mid-combat for two mana tends to lead to some blowouts. And Seedguide Ash (a favorite of mine) is pretty great to Flash out on turn two.

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My general commander philosophy: Using your opponent's degenerate cards against them is far more satisfying than playing degenerate cards yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-22 11:05 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The first quote was clearly that you need to specifically go out of your way to break it

No, you need to go far out of your way NOT to break it. Because we agree that this card goes in decks with creatures and recursion - it's going to escalate VERY quickly into looping Hulk over and over for value and probably just winning the game UNLESS the deck is built very carefully to not do so. You're trying hard to downplay how insane the card is.

Uktabi_Kong wrote:
And the second point was specifically in regards to MMLgamer saying that "it isn't a general" is irrelevant. One of the most fundamental differences between generals and normal cards is the fact that answers are far less effective against generals than other cards. Going back to the Leovold vs Hulk comparison, I'm pretty sure Leo would still be legal today if he wasn't a legendary creature.

MML is correct. Leo and Hulk are very different animals.

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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-22 3:52 pm 
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Sid the Chicken wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
The first quote was clearly that you need to specifically go out of your way to break it

No, you need to go far out of your way NOT to break it. Because we agree that this card goes in decks with creatures and recursion - it's going to escalate VERY quickly into looping Hulk over and over for value and probably just winning the game UNLESS the deck is built very carefully to not do so. You're trying hard to downplay how insane the card is.
I think there's quite a bit of conflating terms here. "Decks with Recursion" means anything from my Omnath deck with Eternal Witness and Regrowth to a Mimeoplasm or Kresh deck that does nothing but, as well as everything in between.

And any card can be insane when it gets recurred for value over and over. Kokusho, Primordials, Prime Speaker Zegana, Great Whale, Sharuum, Ashen Rider, Gray Merchant, Yosei, Rune-Scarred Demon, Terastodon, Ulvenwald Hydra, literally any creature when paired with Stalking Vengeance... even smaller cards like Sad Robot can cause massive game-winning value when recurred over and over. What makes Hulk unique is the fact that it is one of the few creatures that can actually break itself, and in order for it to do that you need to build around it.


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-23 2:11 am 
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Uktabi_Kong wrote:
What makes Hulk unique is the fact that it is one of the few creatures that can actually break itself, and in order for it to do that you need to build around it.


It is interesting to see the verbal gymnastics that you are going through. You have a lot of people that are telling you, that just isn't so. When Hulk was unbanned a lot of people (myself included) just put him in a G/x or G/x/x deck and you know what? Good creatures and disgusting value was had without any build around.

The biggest issue I have is not losing quickly, it is the 25 minute turns that don't end the game. Hulk does that, because you get 450 options but which one is the most value? And maybe you could get that combo to end the game but you just played a multi-tutor and if you want to play another game with these people maybe you should only get a value play?

So how you define "actually breaking itself" is I guess very different that how it is defined by others. Flash/Hulk turn 1 is annoying but at least you can move on. Flash/Hulk or Hulk+Sac outlet on turn 2-35 still means you are sitting there for a long time while they figure out the best value.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: So why aren't all the 0 mana rocks banned?
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-23 10:34 am 
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Inkeyes22 wrote:
It is interesting to see the verbal gymnastics that you are going through. You have a lot of people that are telling you, that just isn't so. When Hulk was unbanned a lot of people (myself included) just put him in a G/x or G/x/x deck and you know what? Good creatures and disgusting value was had without any build around.
I'm not doubting that Hulk gets good creatures and disgusting value. If it didn't, it would rarely get played. My point is that that fact is neither problematic for the format nor unique to Hulk. The only thing about Hulk that I think is both problematic and unique to it is that it is one of the few creatures in the game that is a 1-card combo. Thankfully though, in order for that particular problem to arise you must build around it. Without one of a few rather specific combinations of cards (all of which are combos on their own, by the by), Hulk is just an extremely powerful value engine in a format filled with them.

Quote:
The biggest issue I have is not losing quickly, it is the 25 minute turns that don't end the game. Hulk does that, because you get 450 options but which one is the most value? And maybe you could get that combo to end the game but you just played a multi-tutor and if you want to play another game with these people maybe you should only get a value play?
Maybe I'm missing something major, but isn't that exclusively a player problem? Not that I run multi-tutors often, but when I do I make damn sure that I know exactly what packages in the deck they can fetch and do all of that thinking before I ever put them against a real player. Even with a recursion engine going on this is the kind of thing that you should be able to either have predicted beforehand or figured out pretty quickly. It's just straight-up discourteous to the rest of the table not to understand what's in your own damn deck.

I believe 1000% that decksturbating is a player problem, every time. Be glad they're doing it once every three games with Hulk instead of every game with a tutor general like Yisan or Zur. Or with a resource-amassing general like Kruphix, or a quasimodal general like Marath or a highly versatile general like Kess.

Also, as I mentioned before, if they have the "insta-win" combination in the deck but choose not to use it, that is even more of a player problem. Most players aren't stupid. They know the risks of putting something like KikiScripts in a deck, and they especially know the risks of doing it in the same deck that has multitutors.

Quote:
So how you define "actually breaking itself" is I guess very different that how it is defined by others.

I don't think this is actually true unless we disagree on what makes a card "broken" in the first place. When I refer to Hulk breaking itself, I mean its ability to function as a 1-card combo, as opposed to other cards that are broken when played alongside other cards. Getting Dark Mike or DEN or whatever into play isn't a broken gamestate unless you get another (relatively specific) piece. In a deck built to abuse it, Hulk can break games by no other means than it entering the battlefield and dying. It's like T&N in that way.


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