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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 2:42 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
I'm just making this post on behalf of the people complaining to me. Sorry I forgot to add that part in the post was made quickly. I was requesting the RC Council to simply review them and hoping to arrive to one of two conclusions. Sorry if this post ended up sounding too demanding or preachy.

Also can't we just have people with opposing views discuss on this forums? I generally feel that because I have different views, I'm disliked for expressing them.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 2:43 am 
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Joined: 2016-Nov-27 2:39 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Carthain wrote:
Uktabi_Kong wrote:
(Also, not that this has anything to do with anything, but the tag for Channel is enormous. Does anyone know why/have a way to fix it?)

That's a function of deckbox.org - the ones hosting the images.

I suppose you could come up with some CSS or something to fix it locally if you have something like the Stylish extension/add-on for your browser ... but the real fix is to get deckbox.org to update their image.

Or to get the forums here to update the card preview script.

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Beloved precons: Atraxa, Praetors' Voice; Saskia the Unyielding; Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 3:53 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
Also can't we just have people with opposing views discuss on this forums? I generally feel that because I have different views, I'm disliked for expressing them.

You are probably disliked because you have different views from the majority -- AND THEN go around claiming that you are talking on behalf of the majority or that the sky is falling or something dramatic.

Also, I recall in the past you didn't listen to the opposing views when things were explained why they are the way they are.

So if you're not going to listen to the other side - why should we spend time listening to you? Discussion is a back and forth process, not just one side talking to a recording.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 6:05 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
I'm just making this post on behalf of the people complaining to me. Sorry I forgot to add that part in the post was made quickly. I was requesting the RC Council to simply review them and hoping to arrive to one of two conclusions. Sorry if this post ended up sounding too demanding or preachy.

Also can't we just have people with opposing views discuss on this forums? I generally feel that because I have different views, I'm disliked for expressing them.


I agree there is a lot of people that become personally offended when the status quo is questioned, but I don't think that is all that is going on here. If you are constantly screaming "the sky is falling" and ignoring others it irritates even the most cool-headed persons.

I have learned that the RC does change things, but it generally takes a while and that is probably for the best. If there were constant bannings and unbannings, we might as well just play Standard.

Why others complain so much about cards that (they feel) should be banned is beyond me, I played a game today where someone played Teferi's Protection floating 2WW and then cast Cataclysm. I don't want either card banned, but you better believe I won't be playing with that guy again. I played against him about 6 or so months ago and he did another similar play, why I decided to give him another shot is beyond me, but is that a card problem? No, it is a player problem. If something gets banned, then that person wasted money and time on that card. Time you cannot get back, and most don't have lots of money to waste either. I am just pretty sick of all the whining to ban cards, it is one of the main reasons I take breaks from this and other websites.

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The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 8:32 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
intreped wrote:
Viperion wrote:
OK seriously this time.

Seriously: Can we suspend their account? Please?

I'm only going to respond as though you are serious because you used the word 'seriously' twice:

No, Bull has done nothing to warrant a suspension. These forums are pretty relaxed when it comes to moderation, as you know from having been here for some time. I can imagine someone being suspended for harassment or blatantly innapropriate behavior, but not for simply being consistently 'wrong' and calling for changes.

If you are terribly annoyed by it, there is a "Friends & Foes" option in your User Control Panel; you can add Bull to your Foes and all future posts Bull makes will be hidden from you.
Bull wrote:
On behalf of the majority of players that enjoy this format

As others have said, no. You do not speak for the majority of players that enjoy this format.

And the title of this thread is just . . . weird. If there isn't already public outcry, 'requesting' it isn't likely to do anything. It would make sense in the context of bringing new information to light that the 'public' had not yet known, but that's not what this is. We all know that some fast mana is banned, and some isn't. You already started a thread about that. Why is this even a new thread?
Bull wrote:
Personal note: Sorry if this creates more work for the RC committee . . . with commander becoming more popular and people complaining so much about fast mana something needs to be done.

Don't worry, I'm sure the RC will be fine. Which "people complaining so much" are we talking about?



Sorry it took me a while to reply. I figured a review request for the cards would merit a separate post since it didn't really fit into the other topics. I'm not asking for bans or unbans but simply a review of cards that tend to be problematic.

Generally a lot of the newer faces I see at my local card shops. Typically I think it's the 30 and younger group with the younger kids whining about mostly a lot of irrelevant things. Most of them pick up the format because they see it as fun until they come across some of the hardcore players that run the typical set of sol ring, grim monolith, mana vault, lotus petal, mox diamond and chrome mox in all their edh decks (and manage to get them consistently all out by turn 2 or 3). People with that much ramp have scared off some of the newer faces in my area and it seems that if you don't run those cards you can't compete in the format at my stores.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 8:42 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
they see it as fun until they come across some of the hardcore players that run the typical set of sol ring, grim monolith, mana vault, lotus petal, mox diamond and chrome mox in all their edh decks (and manage to get them consistently all out by turn 2 or 3).

Either you're exaggerating, which doesn't help your point -- or those people are cheating.

You listed off 6 cards. To have them all on turn 3 (7 card draw + 3 draws for turn, 10 cards) ... so 60% of your cards must be always the same ones.

I don't know what the odds are off hand -- but damn that's low.

Edit: Found a quick place to do some stats.

Deck of 99 cards, trying to draw 6 (out of 6) of those 'noted' cards is listed at 0% on turn 10. (not turn 2 or 3.. .turn 10.)

Trying to only draw 3 of the 6, has a 6% chance on turn 10.

Now, mulliganing will increase the odds a bit.

But to consistently do it on turns 2 or 3 -- I call cheating.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 8:50 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
Carthain wrote:
Bull wrote:
they see it as fun until they come across some of the hardcore players that run the typical set of sol ring, grim monolith, mana vault, lotus petal, mox diamond and chrome mox in all their edh decks (and manage to get them consistently all out by turn 2 or 3).

Either you're exaggerating, which doesn't help your point -- or those people are cheating.

You listed off 6 cards. To have them all on turn 3 (7 card draw + 3 draws for turn, 10 cards) ... so 60% of your cards must be always the same ones.

I don't know what the odds are off hand -- but damn that's low.


Yea I did exaggerate the part of getting them all out sorry. They tend to get a majority of them out.

They have some card draw and majority of the time tutors fetch what's missing. Typically the plays are land, one of the moxes, sol ring, mana vault and or grim monolith. Turn 2 maybe land or petal, tutor or wheel and some how into more ramp and tutors.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 9:07 am 
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Joined: 2006-Dec-31 12:26 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Bull wrote:
They have some card draw and majority of the time tutors fetch what's missing. Typically the plays are land, one of the moxes, sol ring, mana vault and or grim monolith. Turn 2 maybe land or petal, tutor or wheel and some how into more ramp and tutors.

That still sounds like cheating.

Having 2 of those (any 2 of the 6 previously identified) on turn 1 is 7.3% (again, ignoring mulligans... but a mulligan will only help you so much here). That's just two. You identified 3 of them. 3 of them on turn 1 is 0.6%.

So -- either you are still heavily exaggerating or those players are cheating to be able to do what you describe consistently.

So either the issue here lies with you (and how you are trying to get people to try and pay attention to you) or in those players. Either way, there isn't anything you've demonstrated that is worrying about the format (let alone being an actual issue.)


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 9:42 am 

Joined: 2013-Mar-15 8:39 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Canada, Ontario
Carthain wrote:
Bull wrote:
They have some card draw and majority of the time tutors fetch what's missing. Typically the plays are land, one of the moxes, sol ring, mana vault and or grim monolith. Turn 2 maybe land or petal, tutor or wheel and some how into more ramp and tutors.

That still sounds like cheating.

Having 2 of those (any 2 of the 6 previously identified) on turn 1 is 7.3% (again, ignoring mulligans... but a mulligan will only help you so much here). That's just two. You identified 3 of them. 3 of them on turn 1 is 0.6%.

So -- either you are still heavily exaggerating or those players are cheating to be able to do what you describe consistently.

So either the issue here lies with you (and how you are trying to get people to try and pay attention to you) or in those players. Either way, there isn't anything you've demonstrated that is worrying about the format (let alone being an actual issue.)


They might be cheating. I'll stick extract and similar to look at their decks. I doubt it but doesn't hurt to look. Maybe they are casino dealers? I dunno. It seems that explosive mana plays seem to happen far too often with the same players.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-26 11:14 am 

Joined: 2010-Mar-10 1:31 pm
Age: Dragon
what kind of mulligans are they taking and how many?

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onlainari wrote:
trappedslider wrote:
EDIT: so if i somehow manged to get down to 1 life,played Repay in Kind followed by Decree of Annihilation then it owuld be bad evil juju?

That's not how magic works. You can't equate cards and situations linearly like that!


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-30 10:37 am 
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Joined: 2009-Aug-20 7:49 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: New Hampshire
Bull wrote:
* Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.
* Creates Undesirable Game States.
* Problematic Casual Omnipresence.
* Produces Too Much Mana Too Quickly.
* Creates a Perceived High Barrier to Entry.

The cards requested to be reviewed for one or more of the previous reasons are:
1) Black Lotus.
2) Channel.
3) Fastbond.
4) All of the moxes such as chrome mox, mox diamond and ruby mox.
5) Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary.
6) Tolarian Academy.
7) mana vault.
8 ) grim monolith.
9) Burgeoning.
10) mana crypt.
11) Lion's Eye Diamond.
12) lotus petal.

That's a pretty bizarre list of cards for a fast mana debate. Lotus and the Moxen are in the "barrier to entry" group - they aren't banned for being fast mana, and as such shouldn't really be brought up here. Burgeoning is too streaky and unreliable to be "fast mana". Yes if you can land it turn 1 and drop 3 lands from hand it's bonkers, but that doesn't happen consistently enough to be banworthy, and I've never heard someone complain about it. LED and Lotus Petal are one-shot effects, and LED comes with significant downside and is pretty much a combo-only thing. Mana Vault and Mana Crypt are the only cards in that list that legitimately belong. The Rest (Channel, Fastbond, Rofellos, Tolarian Academy) are ludicrously overpowered. They're not just "fast mana", they're "I-win-right the-hell-now" mana. Suggesting they be unbanned is incredibly short-sighted at best.

If you want to discuss the merits of allowing fast mana, fine. But this "List of cards to review" is, to quote DBZA, 10 pounds of nope in a 5 pound bag.

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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-31 5:47 am 

Joined: 2015-Sep-02 2:49 am
Age: Drake
Location: Connecticut
The only takeaway I can pull from this thread is maybe reviewing the concept of the "educational ban", if I understood its existence correctly from MtGSalvation. I don't think banning one card as an example so that others will seek out and identify others to house ban works. One of the rationales was a small ban list, but, being honest, it only shrinks the ban list if it fails. Now, all that said, I'm having a great time playing commander exactly as it is right now, so I'm not particularly calling for action. The sort of decisions the RC would have to make to cause me to quit playing commander would probably require the RC to have been abducted and replaced with dopplegangers intent on destroying the format, a scenario about as likely as the topic's opening play scenarios.


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Jan-31 7:23 am 
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Joined: 2012-Dec-03 3:16 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Baron Cappuccino wrote:
The only takeaway I can pull from this thread is maybe reviewing the concept of the "educational ban", if I understood its existence correctly from MtGSalvation. I don't think banning one card as an example so that others will seek out and identify others to house ban works. One of the rationales was a small ban list, but, being honest, it only shrinks the ban list if it fails. Now, all that said, I'm having a great time playing commander exactly as it is right now, so I'm not particularly calling for action. The sort of decisions the RC would have to make to cause me to quit playing commander would probably require the RC to have been abducted and replaced with dopplegangers intent on destroying the format, a scenario about as likely as the topic's opening play scenarios.


Let's be honest with ourselves, even if the RC did make a lot of poor decisions, we could easily just ignore them and keep right on playing. I think pretty much every decision they have made there have been detractors, people that said "well, I'll still play with/against X". Far too often these kinds of issues are from people that play online (I do too), or that don't have a stable play group (I wish I did again). I mean, seriously if someone wins on turn 1-7, it stinks but at least the game is over. I have even had people show that they could combo kill the table, and then voluntarily leave so we could finish the game in a more satisfying manner.

Why are there so many people that want the RC to solve all their problems for them? Don't like MLD (I don't either) if someone plays Bend or Break, just put all your lands in one pile, either you are not affected or you can leave and (hopefully) find a better game. It's always a good idea to communicate with your opponents and be real, if you know you are playing a t3-5 win, don't say your playing casual. If you want to play a tribal deck that can kill if you get a 14 card combo, maybe you shouldn't try to play against Zur or Azami, Lady of Scrolls, unless you like the challenge.

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Shabbaman wrote:
The usual answer is "the social contract", but I guess that is not what you are looking for. Try house rules.


With perfect mana, reasonable removal, disruption, and card advantage, we're back to pitchforks and torches. And it's about to get worse for those who do not enjoy the game as Richard Garfield intended, playing as few win conditions as possible and prompting concession after all hopes (and spells) are lost. - Shaheen Soorani


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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Feb-06 10:27 pm 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
There's no outcry, or need for it. The RC has talked at length about fast mana- and their verdict is that it's up too each playgroup to decide for themselves what kind of fast mana is too fast. In all honesty, most of what's discussed as "problematic" is on a powerscale less impactful than Cultivate and Skyshroud Claim- with the outliers mostly already either being banned, or belonging to a unique subset of exceptionally "build around" speed mana (like Grim Monolith and Ashnod's Altar.)

Most groups I know are cool with replacing Sol Ring with Worn Powerstone, Grim for Basalt, and Everflowing Chalice, Astral Cornucopia etc. over Mana Vault, Mana Crypt if it's brought up in casual discussion about comfort regarding the relative power level of the playgroup- and honestly, the RC has a cold read about that being the way to handle such things, even if I would ban Crypt/Vault/Grim for the raw health of the format (because it isn't a power-level thing, so much as how these cards stack with Sol Ring to create oppressive decks with each additional piece- where Sol Ring itself doesn't really have a ton of impact on it's own.)

Consider also, Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar- Both cards which have certainly earned their spot on any prospective watch list, but if they needed to be banned, it shouldn't be for their power level- but because of their proclivity for being massively centralizing factors in typical playgroups. But that can of worms requires also discussing Skullclamp- a card I'm massively in favor of never banning.

Just have a real conversation with your playgroup and find a pace that works best for the group- The RC probably doesn't have interest in this topic if the conversation begins in bad faith.

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 Post subject: Re: Public out cry request.
AgePosted: 2018-Apr-16 9:01 am 
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Joined: 2010-May-09 10:39 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Ashnod's Altar is super sweet. We've started using it again and it is so, so swingy and powahful.

But to get back to the ever-amusing Bull, the only stuff I'd bad would be Mana Crypt, Mana Vault and Grim Monolith. Moxen are never getting unbanned, and neither is Lotus. Warble already covered Academy/Library so I don't need to re-hash that (though I was very sorely tempted on the MTGSalvation foums and demurred).

In other words, shuffle your opponent's decks if they are drawing those non-stop, or ask them to slow down their gameplay.

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Generals:
Jasmine Boreal - Flower power! Nature/Justice/Retribution themed casual fun.
Radha, Heir to Keld - All white-bordered!
Xantcha, Sleeper Agent - cEDH discard/attrition.
Pre-Modern:
A Denying Wind.
Duel Commander:
Nissa, Vastwoord Seer - Ramp ramp ramp into Ugin+Painter's Servant.
Kari Zev, Skyship Raider - Unbridled Aggro

Find me Saturdays at the Wizard's Tower - Ottawa and occasional Mondays at Westboro Legion for Duel Commander.


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