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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-23 8:38 am 
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Joined: 2011-Jan-02 5:25 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Costa La Haya, capital del ducado Holanda
Himetic wrote:
People hate rotation but it's actually a brilliant, even necessary, idea for constructed formats. The main thing saving commander from being incredibly stagnant is that, as a casual format, people can play with weaker, newer cards without getting steamrolled by whatever the existing best deck is.


I suppose you're not a fan of vintage or legacy. Or EDH.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-23 10:51 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
Shabbaman wrote:
I suppose you're not a fan of vintage or legacy. Or EDH.
vintage, legacy, modern, and standard are all unfun imo. Partly because of non-rotating formats in 3/4 cases, but moreso because any competitive format is always going to become a gristmill to find the top decks and anything fun or different is going to get crushed into pulp.

And I did explain how EDH/commander avoids this problem - by being casual. Beckett Brass pirates can be totally viable as long as your meta isn't particularly cutthroat. If you want to play new cards, like pirates, in competitive vintage you're pretty SOL.

That said, adding rotation could be a positive thing, even to a casual format. I know I won't miss playing against so many of the same stupid cards over and over and over again...sol ring, demo tutor, mana crypt, most of the precon commanders, mana drain, palinchron, DEN, tooth and nail, high tide, craterhoof, expropriate, mikaeus...etc. Plus it'll be a much better starting point for new players. The card pool is an absurd thing for a new player to try to learn. I tend to steer new players away from commander because really, they just aren't ready for the complexity. Brawl seems much more reasonable both in terms of budget and comprehension.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-23 12:44 pm 
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Joined: 2006-May-18 5:21 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Does the RC have any comment on a format created from/inspired by* their format that WotC is administrating?

*not gonna say ripped off, but if the shoe fits....

Seems odd that Wizards would "invent" a format that is "Standard Commander" and not hand it off to you guys to look after.


Seems fine. I think it's much closer to Standard with Commander mechanics grafted on than vice versa, so I don't see it as all that overlapping. I also don't think there's much to look after.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-25 11:47 am 

Joined: 2013-Apr-02 12:46 pm
Age: Wyvern
I'm really warming up to the idea of Brawl being absolutely fantastic for the long term health of Commander. Right now the format seems very divided between the cEDH fans and those who enjoy Commander more in the spirit of the philosophy the RC has advocated. Now, I'm not saying there's a right or wrong way to play Magic but I tend to fall more on the Commander side of the spectrum.

Brawl gives new players an easy entry into the Commander style of game play with 60-card, Standard-only legal cards. This is a much more balanced and easy to digest way of learning the game then say trying to jump into Commander at the FLGS with a barely modified precon and potentially sitting down at a table with Gitrog Monster, Zur, and maybe something a little less scary but still very potent such as Momar Vig. Furthermore, Brawl is going to strongly encourage politics at the table, something I consider a defining aspect of the format.

My hope is this is going to create an influx of Commander fans who will build the kinds of decks I enjoy playing and playing against when they decided to venture into the deep end of the pool.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-26 2:30 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
Swmystery wrote:
It'll be interesting to see if the RC decide to follow Brawl in allowing planeswalkers to be legal Commanders by default. My gut says no, but I'm now wondering.

Two words:

Doubling Season.

That's four words.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-26 5:53 am 

Joined: 2014-Sep-13 7:28 am
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:
PW as Commanders in Brawl is perfectly okay with me, since Doubling Season is not in the format... No gross abuse of PW.

Are there even that many pw commanders broken by DS? Seems like a narrow thing to worry about.

tgambitg wrote:
There will be 2 potential colorless commanders when Brawl becomes a thing, the new Karn and Hope of Ghirapur... But... Wastes are NOT standard legal right now.

That's something they need to do something about.

Not much to do about it unless they really want to make a rule for one card. I think Wastes should be an eternally legal land anyway though.

Bruticus wrote:
I’m surprized that this brawl format didn’t go with the frontier cutoff. (Everything from khans forward, aka the new modern border)

WOTC isn't selling packs of Khans.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-26 9:47 am 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Sovarius wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
PW as Commanders in Brawl is perfectly okay with me, since Doubling Season is not in the format... No gross abuse of PW.

Are there even that many pw commanders broken by DS? Seems like a narrow thing to worry about.

I was going to say something like "Tamiyo is busted in half when she can Ult straight away" but then I realised that a) Doubling Season couldn't go in a Tamiyo deck anyway, and more importantly b) For Brawl, you only need to worry about Standard Legal Planeswalkers.

However, Doubling Season is one of the reasons why Planeswalkers aren't allowed in Commander as commanders (and even then, it's only G/x Planeswalkers that you'd have to worry about).

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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-26 2:16 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
Deepglow Skate also exists, and is sometimes even worse than Doubling Season.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-26 2:46 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Sovarius wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
There will be 2 potential colorless commanders when Brawl becomes a thing, the new Karn and Hope of Ghirapur... But... Wastes are NOT standard legal right now.

That's something they need to do something about.

Not much to do about it unless they really want to make a rule for one card. I think Wastes should be an eternally legal land anyway though.


I've communicated to both Gavin and MaRo that the most elegant solution would be to make the basic supertype also mean "this card is legal in all formats always". This would also mean that the Snow-Covered lands would be legal in all formats. There's only 32 edge cases I can think of where that even comes close to mattering...

Gifts Ungiven - Not legal in Standard/Brawl, so no issue, modern maybe, but you're going to be searching for better cards than lands. Scratch that, I forgot Snow-Covered lands were legal in Modern, silly Coldsnap and its Modern legality.

Realms Uncharted - Also not legal in Standard/Brawl. You're not always going to search for basics with this card.

Awakened Amalgam - Legal in Standard/Brawl, Adds a max of 6 more cards you can use to make it bigger, for a total of 11 differently named basics, so it could be 11/11 based off that alone, but you can achieve the same idea with non-basics.

All in all, I don't think making basic lands of any type evergreen legal would cause that much of a problem.


Last edited by tgambitg on 2018-Mar-26 2:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-26 2:50 pm 
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Joined: 2010-Jul-18 9:59 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
tgambitg wrote:

Ugh. Worst rare in the set, confirmed.

/runs

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"- if this spell is played ten times in a given game then I suggest you warm up the tar and pluck some chickens" - tarnar

The internet's great at making noise, and poor at operating pants. There's gonna be half-dressed mobs screeching half-assed arguments for the rest of the 21st century - Kemev


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-26 2:52 pm 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Viperion wrote:
tgambitg wrote:

Ugh. Worst rare in the set, confirmed.

/runs


Not going to disagree with you there, or at least putting it in the top end of worst rares, But the point still stands, it *is* an edge case should 6 more basics become legal in Standard/Brawl.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-26 9:43 pm 

Joined: 2013-Jun-23 10:18 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Viperion wrote:
Sovarius wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
PW as Commanders in Brawl is perfectly okay with me, since Doubling Season is not in the format... No gross abuse of PW.

Are there even that many pw commanders broken by DS? Seems like a narrow thing to worry about.

I was going to say something like "Tamiyo is busted in half when she can Ult straight away" but then I realised that a) Doubling Season couldn't go in a Tamiyo deck anyway, and more importantly b) For Brawl, you only need to worry about Standard Legal Planeswalkers.

However, Doubling Season is one of the reasons why Planeswalkers aren't allowed in Commander as commanders (and even then, it's only G/x Planeswalkers that you'd have to worry about).


No, you're actually dead on. You're just talking about the wrong Tamiyo- Field Researcher is busted in half when she can ult straight away (at least, when she's in the Command Zone)...

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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-27 5:59 am 

Joined: 2010-Oct-26 5:52 am
Age: Dragon
Swmystery wrote:

No, you're actually dead on. You're just talking about the wrong Tamiyo- Field Researcher is busted in half when she can ult straight away (at least, when she's in the Command Zone)...


still not as bad as the myriad of broken combos already legal in the format.

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Maluko wrote:
We need a clear set of objective rules so that everybody always knows what to expect, and how to prepare for it. As of now, I think I spend more time arguing with players about the format than I do playing fun and interactive games of Commander. And last time I read, this was not the format's purpose.

QFT


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-27 6:58 am 

Joined: 2011-Mar-07 4:24 pm
Age: Drake
tgambitg wrote:
I've communicated to both Gavin and MaRo that the most elegant solution would be to make the basic supertype also mean "this card is legal in all formats always".

I don't care enough to go bother wotc people on twitter, but be aware that there are plenty of people (myself very much included) who think that adding a special clause to the rules for brawl, let alone changing the rules for standard rotation, to be able to play a couple more lands in decks for 2 commanders - which are extremely horrible with or without those lands - is a ludicrous idea.

If you want the challenge of building a deck around arguably the weakest commander ever printed using a pool of less than 200 cards, I'd think running 18 lands would be a tame challenge by comparison.


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 Post subject: Re: Brawl -.standard legal EDH
AgePosted: 2018-Mar-27 9:05 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Himetic wrote:
tgambitg wrote:
I've communicated to both Gavin and MaRo that the most elegant solution would be to make the basic supertype also mean "this card is legal in all formats always".

I don't care enough to go bother wotc people on twitter, but be aware that there are plenty of people (myself very much included) who think that adding a special clause to the rules for brawl, let alone changing the rules for standard rotation, to be able to play a couple more lands in decks for 2 commanders - which are extremely horrible with or without those lands - is a ludicrous idea.

If you want the challenge of building a deck around arguably the weakest commander ever printed using a pool of less than 200 cards, I'd think running 18 lands would be a tame challenge by comparison.


Gavin has already responded that they are figuring out a way to fix the issue, as they had not even foreseen it, and now are made aware of it. So.... Voicing opinions works.

They may be weak commanders, but they can also be fun commanders to play, so why should they be excluded?


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