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 Post subject: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-02 7:14 am 
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I know that this isn't especially specific to EDH- but it does present problems common in EDH play- so I'm looking for some iron-clad clarification.

While writing another response to Card Slinger J in his Firesong and Sunspeaker thread, it occured to me that if Paradise Plume helped to trigger the second ability, it would completely change how lucky charms behave in the context of such a deck. Plume, however has a Triggered Ability, and Firesong flags instants and sorceries. Does the trigger resolving create an event wherein the lifegain was "caused" by the white Instant or Sorcery? Relative to the deck, this impacts a number of avenues because of how much emphasis Firesong puts on card and mana efficient lifegain, as opposed to the amount of life gained in the instance.

So far as I know, Naban, Dean of Iteration is also giving a couple of these headscratchers. So far, I've really enjoyed Dominaria as a set, but we'll have to hope for clearer templating, or clearer occurrences of this type of wording, should "cause" become more commonplace in the MtG vocabulary. If it does, hopefully it's correlation will be tied to "effect"- which while significantly more robust in Magic's history- can still lead to murky reading.

Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-02 7:38 am 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
Does the trigger resolving create an event wherein the lifegain was "caused" by the white Instant or Sorcery?
No. F&S specifically requires the source of the lifegain to be a white instant/sorcery. Paradise Plume is the source of its lifegain, not the spell its mana is used to cast. (Mana abilities can be used while putting a spell/ability on the stack, but the source of the mana ability is the permanent that puts the mana into your pool, not the spell cast with it).

Mr Degradation wrote:
So far as I know, Naban, Dean of Iteration is also giving a couple of these headscratchers.
This is fairly straightforward, too. If something says "when a creature/permanent enters the battlefield" or something similar, then if it was a wizard that triggered it, it's doubled.

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-02 9:59 am 
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From the rulings of Firesong & Sunspeaker (can be found on Gatherer):
Firesong and Sunspeaker’s last ability doesn’t trigger if a triggered ability of a white instant or sorcery spell or card causes you to gain life, such as the triggered ability of Renewed Faith when it’s cycled.

So, if Renewed Faith's triggered ability doesn't cause it to trigger, then there's no way a Paradise Plume will.


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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-02 10:27 am 
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:D Thanks dudes

The wording on the gatherer clarification sortof confused me.

I read it, and thought it would be referencing the trigger being "caused' by cycling. IE: You aren't casting a white instant or sorcery, and therefore- the white spell wouldn't "cause" the trigger- but a trigger that is "caused" by white spell itself might catch it.

Much appreciated.

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-03 2:05 am 
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Nope, it's referring to the sorcery or instant directly :)


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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 4:12 am 
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Alright- this one came up, and I'm definitely not CR-savvy enough to make any distinctions with a sense of clarity. In the thread, I think Segrus is probably in-the-right, since he seems to have a deeper understanding of the CR.

Going to try and simplify for clarity...

Scenario wrote:
Spikeshot Elder is on the battlefield with an active Firesong and Sunspeaker
Spikeshot Elder's ability is activated, target is chosen
When priority reaches the controller of Spikeshot Elder- they cast Swift Justice targeting Spikeshot Elder
Nobody responds, Swift Justice resolves, everyone passes priority, Spikeshot Elder's activated ability resolves...


-Does Firesong and Sunspeaker's trigger occur?
-How does this apply to the usage of "Cause"- since it doesn't mention a "Source", and Lifelink is a static ability, as opposed to a triggered one? Does it being a static characteristic have any baring whatsoever?
-Are there outlier situations, or specific sequencing that does work?

Thanks in advance :)

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 4:29 am 
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Mr Degradation wrote:
Alright- this one came up, and I'm definitely not CR-savvy enough to make any distinctions with a sense of clarity. In the thread, I think Segrus is probably in-the-right, since he seems to have a deeper understanding of the CR.

Going to try and simplify for clarity...

Scenario wrote:
Spikeshot Elder is on the battlefield with an active Firesong and Sunspeaker
Spikeshot Elder's ability is activated, target is chosen
When priority reaches the controller of Spikeshot Elder- they cast Swift Justice targeting Spikeshot Elder
Nobody responds, Swift Justice resolves, everyone passes priority, Spikeshot Elder's activated ability resolves...


-Does Firesong and Sunspeaker's trigger occur?
-How does this apply to the usage of "Cause"- since it doesn't mention a "Source", and Lifelink is a static ability, as opposed to a triggered one? Does it being a static characteristic have any baring whatsoever?
-Are there outlier situations, or specific sequencing that does work?

Thanks in advance :)

Nothing in there is a red or white instant or sorcery causing you to gain life. Instead Spikeshot Elder deals damage and, via lifelink it was granted, Spikeshot Elder causes you to gain life. However, Swift Justice has no damage or relation to the life gain and is not considered its cause.

F&S looks out for an instant or sorcery directly giving you lifegain itself directly: a Lightning Bolt dealing damage with lifelink itself gives you life, so does Angel's Mercy.

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 6:22 am 
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spacemonaut wrote:
F&S looks out for an instant or sorcery directly giving you lifegain itself directly: a Lightning Bolt dealing damage with lifelink itself gives you life, so does Angel's Mercy.
No, Firesong and Sunspeaker looks specifically for a white instant/sorcery directly gaining you life. As such, a lifelinking Lightning Bolt (which is red) will not trigger F&S's on-life-gain trigger. However, the Angel's Mercy (being white) would do so.

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 6:27 am 

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Willbender wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
F&S looks out for an instant or sorcery directly giving you lifegain itself directly: a Lightning Bolt dealing damage with lifelink itself gives you life, so does Angel's Mercy.
No, Firesong and Sunspeaker looks specifically for a white instant/sorcery directly gaining you life. As such, a lifelinking Lightning Bolt (which is red) will not trigger F&S's on-life-gain trigger. However, the Angel's Mercy (being white) would do so.

Its funny how that one thing ruined this card for me. I get why it doesnt count the red lifelinked spells, but it still bugs me.

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 10:47 am 
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Willbender wrote:
spacemonaut wrote:
F&S looks out for an instant or sorcery directly giving you lifegain itself directly: a Lightning Bolt dealing damage with lifelink itself gives you life, so does Angel's Mercy.
No, Firesong and Sunspeaker looks specifically for a white instant/sorcery directly gaining you life. As such, a lifelinking Lightning Bolt (which is red) will not trigger F&S's on-life-gain trigger. However, the Angel's Mercy (being white) would do so.

Whoops, thanks for the correction, I misread that bit.

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-21 11:11 am 
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spacemonaut wrote:
Whoops, thanks for the correction, I misread that bit.
Yeah, I know. I was disappointed by the color restrictions, too. I really wanted to be able to get lifelink on Sunlance-like cards and (especially) Fire and Brimstone.

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-24 1:49 pm 

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For a general rule, the word cause is always applied as direct causation. So the question is, what happened in the exact moment before you gained life?

Spikeshot dealt damage, you gained life at that moment, so spikeshot is what caused you to gain life.

You cast a spell, triggered paradise plume, and gained life. The thing right before gaining life is a paradise plume trigger resolving, so the plume caused the life gain.

If the last moment before the life gain isn't "a white spell resolved" then you don't get sunspeaker triggers.

It is done this way because otherwise your lifegain would also be caused by you tapping you lands, drawing a card for the turn and sitting down to play the game at all. If you go much past direct cause then everything was caused by the postman with a twinkle in his eye.

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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-25 6:53 pm 

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Technically, that's not how the rules work. In general you're right, but there are some weird exceptions. Notably, there's Chant of Vitu-Ghazi. It doesn't create delayed triggers or replace an event with gaining life, the effect of the spell just causes you to gain life later in the turn. With F+S this gains you an arbitrary amount of life, but draws the game if no one can remove F+S.

Quote:
615.5. Some prevention effects also include an additional effect, which may refer to the amount of damage that was prevented. The prevention takes place at the time the original event would have happened; the rest of the effect takes place immediately afterward.


https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/8656v9/new_infinite_life_combo_using_firesong_and/


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 Post subject: Re: Comp meaning for "Cause"
AgePosted: 2018-May-25 11:26 pm 
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I believe the rules about prevention effects are too fuzzy to completely trust that Chant works that way. While the rules don't explicitly say prevention effects are replacement effects, the introduction to prevention (615.1) literally call out prevention effects as being "like" or similar to replacement effects--and it's not altogether wrong to treat prevention effects like replacement effects. They have very, very similar wordings throughout their associated rules. It's very likely prevention should be codified as a replacement effect for simplicity.

I really would wait for a specific ruling from a high level judge or the rules team themselves. I sincerely dislike how Chant is worded.

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