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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 7:27 am 
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Swmystery wrote:
majikal wrote:
...Godo tutors it straight into play and is your commander, so all you need to do is make 11 mana, cast your commander, and equip the helm.


I think I'm OK with this kind of "all you need to do."


With a GOD HAND, you can win turn 2.

T1: Mountain into Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, tap both for Brass Squire.
T2: Mountain, tap all mana, Godo, Bandit Warlord, fetch Helm of the Host, tap Brass Squire to equip to Godo, Bandit Warlord, move to combat, infinite combats.

Clunky? Yes. Requiring GOD HAND? Yes. Fun? For you, yeah. One-in-a-million. The only thing required to break it is killing/exiling Godo before the combat step.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 8:21 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
tgambitg wrote:
Swmystery wrote:
majikal wrote:
...Godo tutors it straight into play and is your commander, so all you need to do is make 11 mana, cast your commander, and equip the helm.


I think I'm OK with this kind of "all you need to do."


With a GOD HAND, you can win turn 2.

T1: Mountain into Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, tap both for Brass Squire.
T2: Mountain, tap all mana, Godo, Bandit Warlord, fetch Helm of the Host, tap Brass Squire to equip to Godo, Bandit Warlord, move to combat, infinite combats.

Clunky? Yes. Requiring GOD HAND? Yes. Fun? For you, yeah. One-in-a-million. The only thing required to break it is killing/exiling Godo before the combat step.

Turn 1: Mountain, Mana Crypt/Mana Vault, SSG/Petal/Mox/maybe a ritual depending on which rock, Treasonous Ogre. Pay 33 life lol, turn 1 that shit.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 8:38 am 
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Location: Northamptonshire, UK
majikal wrote:
I don't think you understand how it works if you think a blocker stops it.


Perhaps you could have explained it explicitly, then, rather than just snarking about it and leaving me in the dark. I also notice that you don't address any of the other things that I suggested that stop it.

Evilkritter wrote:
To those unclear on how the combo works, it is a bit tricky;
Cast Godo
Godo ETB puts helm into play
Pay 5 to equip
Go to combat, beginning of combat make a haste 3/3 copy
Copy attacks causing another combat step
It does not matter what happens to the copy
Next combat Helm makes another 3/3, repeat forever

Godo does not need to attack


That's more like it. Thank you Evilkritter.

Okay, so I missed that Godo himself doesn't need to attack (which is where the logic of having a 3/4 blocker comes from, though an Indestructible/First Strike/Double Strike/Protection From Red 3/X would still be enough as it could just keep blocking the token indefinitely), but that doesn't negate any of the rest of what I said. Instant-speed removal or bounce for creatures or artifacts prevents it, as do the cards that I mentioned and others of their ilk, or even other things like Disallow, Bind, Pithing Needle, Stony Silence, or Ghostly Prison.


tgambitg wrote:
With a GOD HAND, you can win turn 2.

T1: Mountain into Sol Ring, Mana Crypt, tap both for Brass Squire.
T2: Mountain, tap all mana, Godo, Bandit Warlord, fetch Helm of the Host, tap Brass Squire to equip to Godo, Bandit Warlord, move to combat, infinite combats.

Clunky? Yes. Requiring GOD HAND? Yes. Fun? For you, yeah. One-in-a-million. The only thing required to break it is killing/exiling Godo before the combat step.


My goodness, that's hilarious. That is completely what NOBODY would expect from your average mono-Red deck. And it's going to happen so infrequently that the one-in-a-million time you pull it off you're going to be grinning for days afterwards.

If this were something that could reliably be pulled off early, then I'd agree that something might need to be done. But the sheer amount of mana required to pull it off, combined with the fact that it's not too difficult to stop, makes me think that this isn't anywhere near as big a problem as OP is intimating.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-13 8:52 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Hate to be mean about this, but the more I've thought about it- the harder I've busted a gut about thinking about it playing out well. If you're playing Godo in the CZ- you're restricted to mono R (the color that has the hardest time protecting it's things-) and you need to generate 11 mana with your General before doing it to be even remotely threatening.

On a rate of "things that work sometimes"- this is heads on heels worse than any Norin or Feldon setup I've seen in play, and requires you to not develop Godo in a Godo deck until you have 11 mana and can simply take the leap of faith (which often means that this isn't a 1 card combo- you're pouring rocks and rituals into it as well) all to get absolutely blown out by every single 1-2 mana artifact and/or creature removal in the game- in the multiplayer format which is pretty well known for pretty loaded up on vintage level artifact and creature hate... and worse, it's blown out by Fog in the format best known for modal fog being good because of Kiki Conscripts tricks, and mass buffs like True Conviction being a known element.

Atleast worrying about Jhoira, Weatherlight Captain was based off a concern with fastrocks allowing the deck to explode at a reasonable pace- and as far as Godo in any other build coming out and ending a game like this for 11 mana, I'm still confused about why anyone would care. This is a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Knowledge Pool combo- it's novel in just how often it just won't happen because it's prone to getting blown out by literally everything all of the time.

Red has explosive synergy cards? Ya don't say- it's not like the color is themed around it or anything. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations
AgePosted: 2018-May-14 2:09 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Evilkritter wrote:
To those unclear on how the combo works, it is a bit tricky;
Cast Godo
Godo ETB puts helm into play
Pay 5 to equip
Go to combat, beginning of combat make a haste 3/3 copy
Copy attacks causing another combat step
It does not matter what happens to the copy
Next combat Helm makes another 3/3, repeat forever

Godo does not need to attack

"I'm going to attack alone with my token Godo, and keep taking however many.combat steps it requires in order to deal enough damage to kill all your blockers and then lethal to each opponent. Does anyone have a way to prevent this? No, ok. Shuffle up again?"

"Are you going to play that same linear deck with does absolutely nothing but ramp into Godo every game again this game? Cool, do you want to switch decks or sit out this game?"


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 Post subject: Re: Explanations
AgePosted: 2018-May-14 3:23 am 
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cryogen wrote:
Evilkritter wrote:
To those unclear on how the combo works, it is a bit tricky;
Cast Godo
Godo ETB puts helm into play
Pay 5 to equip
Go to combat, beginning of combat make a haste 3/3 copy
Copy attacks causing another combat step
It does not matter what happens to the copy
Next combat Helm makes another 3/3, repeat forever

Godo does not need to attack

"I'm going to attack alone with my token Godo, and keep taking however many.combat steps it requires in order to deal enough damage to kill all your blockers and then lethal to each opponent. Does anyone have a way to prevent this? No, ok. Shuffle up again?"

"Are you going to play that same linear deck with does absolutely nothing but ramp into Godo every game again this game? Cool, do you want to switch decks or sit out this game?"


Or even before the deck has even been seen, when your fellow player puts down a Godo commander:

"Is this a Helm of the Host deck that cranks out infinite combat steps on turn five or so?"

Depending on how you're feeling, you can then say: "Ok, these are samey and I don't feel like playing against it. Do you have another deck you could use instead?"

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 Post subject: Re: Explanations
AgePosted: 2018-May-14 4:23 am 
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spacemonaut wrote:
Or even before the deck has even been seen, when your fellow player puts down a Godo commander:

"Is this a Helm of the Host deck that cranks out infinite combat steps on turn five or so?"

Depending on how you're feeling, you can then say: "Ok, these are samey and I don't feel like playing against it. Do you have another deck you could use instead?"


I feel as though this is more of a group discussion.

If your group is totally averse to combos at all- it would be appropriate to do as you have suggested, however, in my own experience- I'd feel more inclined to let the Godo player know that the particular setup is exceptionally high in risk:reward, and they may experience a degree of feelbad by playing it, given that most of my decks are outfitted to position the risk against them in a way that may feel unfair to THEM.

This requires being able to gauge the group as a whole, though. The politics of EDH begin before the game does- and seeing Zur, Jeleva, Sidisi, Teferi (Temporal Archmage), Arcoum Dagson, Breya, Arbiter, or Ruric Thar in the command zone is an instantaneous political risk- where a more specified combo like Godo can carry the same risk, even if the deck isn't nearly as threatening. We should presume the best about the player wanting to pilot Godo Helm, in that they are intelligent enough to evaluate this risk, but also be willing to clarify beforehand that our group might be hostile or averse to linear/combo strategies going into the game.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-14 4:34 am 

Joined: 2012-Mar-31 11:52 am
Age: Elder Dragon
In a like minded group this can be fun, but it gets old fast when everyone has to team up against one known threat before you can even play the game. Especially when one person just uses that time to take advantage of everyone else expending resources and then "wins out of nowhere".


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-14 5:49 am 
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cryogen wrote:
In a like minded group this can be fun, but it gets old fast when everyone has to team up against one known threat before you can even play the game. Especially when one person just uses that time to take advantage of everyone else expending resources and then "wins out of nowhere".


My whole point is that this doesn't require any sort of group effort. The combo gets completely dusted by any standard 1/2 mana removal or disruption in MTG's history. I know many people try not to play Lightning Bolt in EDH, but the card is still incredibly powerful because things like this will always exist- much like Teferi-lock, we're analyzing a combo that gets hosed by Nature's Claim, Swords to Plowshares, Chain of Vapor, and any other 1/2 mana variants therein- but spells like Lightning Bolt, Chain of Plasma, Chain Lightning etc in addition to the regular defenders, without even the lucksack of getting the pieces online in the right order to dodge a specific answer- also stop this with a DEVASTATING tempo break that leaves the Godo player simply in the backseat for likely the rest of the game. No teamwork required.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-14 5:00 pm 

Joined: 2014-Jul-26 11:35 am
Age: Elder Dragon
My rule for combo decks is always if you have to scoop to jester cap, then you've built a bad deck.

If people want to build linear combo decks with a single game plan so be it. It could be done before godo and it will be doable if you ban him. This is a classic example of talk it out or tech it out.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-14 10:05 pm 

Joined: 2012-Oct-24 8:05 pm
Age: Drake
Mr Degradation wrote:
This is a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir + Knowledge Pool combo- it's novel in just how often it just won't happen because it's prone to getting blown out by literally everything all of the time.

The Knowledge Pool combo is actually much harder to disrupt because you can cast Teferi on the end step before your turn, then untap and cast Pool. If Teferi resolves, your opponents never get to cast spells again unless they can kill you or remove one of those permanents with on-board abilities. (I did see a video on YouTube where a player beat the lock thanks to having a decent board state and dropping Homeward Path to take back his creatures the opponent cast from the Pool, but it's pretty tough.)


Masked Thespian wrote:
an Indestructible/First Strike/Double Strike/Protection From Red 3/X would still be enough as it could just keep blocking the token indefinitely

Well, the Godo player can build up a bunch of untapped tokens in the process of killing anyone who doesn't have such a blocker, unless they all scoop. Also, they presumably would play a few other equipment for this situation, or to win fairly if they lose access to the Helm. E.g. Hammer of Nazahn, Batterskull, Whispersilk Cloak would win through any number of blockers without costing any extra mana.


spacemonaut wrote:
Or even before the deck has even been seen, when your fellow player puts down a Godo commander:

"Is this a Helm of the Host deck that cranks out infinite combat steps on turn five or so?"

Depending on how you're feeling, you can then say: "Ok, these are samey and I don't feel like playing against it. Do you have another deck you could use instead?"

I find this kind of thing solves most problems if people are willing to be reasonable. It helps if some players have extra decks to lend to players who are new or don't have decks the others want to play against.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 3:07 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
I'm unpersuaded by the "just lightning bolt it" argument. That stops it for a turn. Godo just goes back to the Command zone and gets to try again the next turn. Blowing up the Helm is far more effective, but red has all kinds of artifact recursion, so it's far from some glass cannon.

The kind of tension this creates in games is an extreme fun-suck. You basically have to keep something ready to deal with Godo at all times and still run the risk of them just casting their commander and winning if nobody can take that player out before everyone runs out of removal. And that's assuming you can somehow convince everyone not to tap out ever, or that the other players even have the right removal in their decks.

I want to make it clear that I don't have a problem with combo decks. I play mostly in a super competitive environment where turn 1-3 wins are common. A tuned version of this deck would fit right in there. The problem is that I don't see this deck showing up there, I see it showing up at casual days with new players. It's super cheap to build, Helm is a cool card that people are excited about, most of the stuff to make it resilient comes in preconstructed decks, and it's absurdly easy to pilot. I just don't think any deck should have a primary gameplan of "just cast your commander to win instantly". You basically have Coalition Victory in the command zone, and that sucks.

cryogen wrote:
In a like minded group this can be fun, but it gets old fast when everyone has to team up against one known threat before you can even play the game. Especially when one person just uses that time to take advantage of everyone else expending resources and then "wins out of nowhere".

Also this. So much this.


Last edited by majikal on 2018-May-15 3:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 3:40 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
The kind of tension this creates in games is an extreme fun-suck. You basically have to keep something ready to deal with Godo at all times and still run the risk of them just casting their commander and winning if nobody can take that player out before everyone runs out of removal. And that's assuming you can somehow convince everyone not to tap out ever, or that the other players even have the right removal in their decks.
This is true of every combo deck, the difference is you know its a combo deck from T1.

Quote:
I want to make it clear that I don't have a problem with combo decks though. I play mostly in a super competitive environment where turn 1-3 wins are common. This deck would fit right in there. The problem is that I don't see this deck showing up there. I see it showing up at casual days with new players. It's super cheap to build, Helm is a cool card that people are excited about, most of the stuff to make it resilient comes in preconstructed decks, and it's absurdly easy to pilot. I just don't think any deck should have a gameplan of "just cast your commander to win instantly". You basically have Coalition Victory in the command zone, and that sucks.
Then allow those people to experience the deck and these cards and let them decide to complain if there is a systemic issue. But since the RC does not ban for combo anymore, seems unlikely.

The biggest hurdle is going to be neither card comes close to meettiting a ban criiterria.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 3:54 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
MRHblue wrote:
majikal wrote:
The kind of tension this creates in games is an extreme fun-suck. You basically have to keep something ready to deal with Godo at all times and still run the risk of them just casting their commander and winning if nobody can take that player out before everyone runs out of removal. And that's assuming you can somehow convince everyone not to tap out ever, or that the other players even have the right removal in their decks.
This is true of every combo deck, the difference is you know its a combo deck from T1.

This is patently false. No other combo deck has their entire combo as a commander.

MRHblue wrote:
majikal wrote:
I want to make it clear that I don't have a problem with combo decks though. I play mostly in a super competitive environment where turn 1-3 wins are common. This deck would fit right in there. The problem is that I don't see this deck showing up there. I see it showing up at casual days with new players. It's super cheap to build, Helm is a cool card that people are excited about, most of the stuff to make it resilient comes in preconstructed decks, and it's absurdly easy to pilot. I just don't think any deck should have a gameplan of "just cast your commander to win instantly". You basically have Coalition Victory in the command zone, and that sucks.
Then allow those people to experience the deck and these cards and let them decide to complain if there is a systemic issue. But since the RC does not ban for combo anymore, seems unlikely.

The biggest hurdle is going to be neither card comes close to meettiting a ban criiterria.


I think both of these apply:
Sheldon wrote:
* Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander. Commander introduces specific structural differences to the game of Magic (notably singleton decks, color restrictions in deckbuilding, and the existence of a Commander). Magic cards not designed with Commander in mind sometimes interact with those elements in ways that change the effective functionality of the card. Cards that have moved too far (in a potentially problematic direction) from their original intent due to this mismatch are candidates for banning. This criterion also includes legendary creatures that are problematic if always available.

* Creates Undesirable Game States. Losing is not an undesirable game state. However, a game in which one or more players, playing comparable casual decks, have minimal participation in the game is something which players should be steered away from. Warning signs include massive overall resource imbalance, early-game cards that lock players out, and cards with limited function other than to win the game out of nowhere.

Having Godo constantly available as a commander is definitely problematic. It is literally the only spell you have to cast to end the game, which brings number 2 into play based on minimal participation and only functioning to win the game out of nowhere. The second point is arguable, but Interacts Poorly is pretty clear with its Problematic as a Commander clause.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 4:15 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
This is true of every combo deck, the difference is you know its a combo deck from T1.

This is patently false. No other combo deck has their entire combo as a commander.
Agreed, but anytime you are playing against combo you have to be ready when they 'go for it'. Any time every one taps out could be game over. With thiss you know the exact requirments : Godo plus 5 mana. Most other combo you just wont know.

Quote:
I think both of these apply:
* Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.
* Creates Undesirable Game States..
Please explain how a card thats been in the format over a decade now meets these criteria?

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