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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 4:23 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
majikal wrote:
This is patently false. No other combo deck has their entire combo as a commander.


Have you ever played a combo deck? 11 mana is no small ask- and the type of acceleration required for this is almost never anything short of a 5 card wager- if you're even looking to do anything remotely before turn 7. This is bad math, no matter how you cut it- if you're relying on Mana Vault, Grim Monolith, Rituals, or things like Lion's Eye Diamond and Extraplanar Lens ONTOP of not missing Mountain drops- you're absolutely liquifying your hand for a combo that can be blown out for 1-2 mana consistently.

What the combo ACTUALLY does, is allows Feldon of the Third Path, Godo, Bandit Warlord, Aurelia, the Warleader, Adriana, Captain of the Guard, and Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer (IE, decks that already want to play Godo) the ability to do something at a point in the game where 11 mana is available (and in the Godo deck, it's even worse, because you're banking on 11 as the magic number by virtue of not grabbing any of the more consistent equipment options available.) In any of these decks, Godo's just cheating a powerful equipment into play- because that's what Godo does- but in a Godo deck itself, Skullclamp, Sword of Fire and Ice, Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of the Animist, and Lightning Greaves are almost always better first choices for Godo's triggered ability- since they don't ask you to completely destabilize your ENTIRE position by melting your hand for a single play- and in these decks, you're really going to have to worry more about Helm of the Host being strapped to a Siege-Gang Commander or a Dragon Mage.

If you're going to be hyperbolic about an 11 mana, 5 card wager- then playing a format with a vintage cardpool probably isn't for you.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 4:30 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
MRHblue wrote:
majikal wrote:
MRHblue wrote:
This is true of every combo deck, the difference is you know its a combo deck from T1.

This is patently false. No other combo deck has their entire combo as a commander.
Agreed, but anytime you are playing against combo you have to be ready when they 'go for it'. Any time every one taps out could be game over. With thiss you know the exact requirments : Godo plus 5 mana. Most other combo you just wont know.

I think you misunderstand me. The combo itself is not a problem. The fact that it is available at all times, straight out of the command zone is a problem.

MRHblue wrote:
Quote:
I think both of these apply:
* Interacts Poorly With the Structure of Commander.
* Creates Undesirable Game States..
Please explain how a card thats been in the format over a decade now meets these criteria?

Because cards don't exist in a vacuum, and as new cards get printed, old cards can become problematic.

Mr Degradation wrote:
Have you even played a combo deck?

Poor little sausage. Did someone hurt you?


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 4:38 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
I think you misunderstand me. The combo itself is not a problem. The fact that it is available at all times, straight out of the command zone is a problem.
Sure. For 11 (minimum) mana and a decades worth of telegraphing. Yes people will do it. No not for long.

Quote:
Because cards don't exist in a vacuum, and as new cards get printed, old cards can become problematic.
While we agree cards don't exist in a vaccuum, I don't think you could come up with an example of a new card necessitating the ban of an old card.

You agree it is only an issuee if both cards are in the same deck, yes?

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 4:50 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
MRHblue wrote:
majikal wrote:
I think you misunderstand me. The combo itself is not a problem. The fact that it is available at all times, straight out of the command zone is a problem.
Sure. For 11 (minimum) mana and a decades worth of telegraphing. Yes people wiil do it. No not for long.

A. 11 mana is not that much, especially for a red deck.
B. Why won't people do it for long? Godo grabs big, dumb equipment and puts it right into play. That's his schtick. Helm is the biggest, dumbest equipment. As long as both cards exist, people will play them both. You vastly overestimate the ability of players to self-regulate, especially when both cards combined are <$10.

MRHblue wrote:
Quote:
Because cards don't exist in a vacuum, and as new cards get printed, old cards can become problematic.
While we agree cards don't exist in a vaccuum, I don't think you could come up with an example of a new card neecessitating the ban of an old card.

Eldrazi were certainly a decisive factor in the banning of Rofellos. Erayo was banned after years of being legal after Scars of Mirrodin block came around with its cheap artifacts and free spells. Sometimes new cards make old cards problematic.

MRHblue wrote:
You agree it is only an issue if both cards are in the samee deck, yes?

The existence of helm specifically makes Godo a problem, yes. But no, "just don't put it in the deck" is not a valid answer, for the reasons stated above.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 5:00 am 
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Joined: 2017-Mar-11 6:43 am
Age: Dragon
Bravo. You delete a post, to opt for another ad hominem- because apparently being asked if you've tried something AS OLD AS THE GAME ITSELF is too painful. That sure shows a great deal of confidence when you DEMAND THAT THE RULES CHANGE, but your principals, or evidence boil down to to outright misrepresenting the permutations in which this can happen.

Thanks dude, REAL insightful thread. Shows a great deal of concern for the health of the rules, and the community that participate in this format. Absolutely certain this will persuade the RC to ban one of two support tools for decks which are archetypically at a disadvantage in terms of difficulty to build and pilot at any of level of play.

Image

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 5:01 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Poor little sausage.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 5:05 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
B. Why won't people do it for long? Godo grabs big, dumb equipment and puts it right into play. That's his schtick. Helm is the biggest, dumbest equipment. As long as both cards exist, people will play them both. You vastly overestimate the ability of players to self-regulate, especially when both cards combined are <$10.
For the same reason I don't see hermit druid combo or Zur all the time. People get tired of playing with/against fragile combo.

Quote:
Eldrazi were certainly a decisive factor in the banning of Rofellos. Erayo was banned after years of being legal after Scars of Mirrodin block came around with its cheap artifacts and free spells. Sometimes new cards make old cards problematic.
It is intellectually dishonest to pretend that had anything to do with either. Both fell to the changes of 'banned as commander' getting the axe. Provide some evidence or admit that is BS.
Quote:
The existence of helm specifically makes Godo a problem, yes. But no, "just don't put it in the deck" is not a valid answer, for the reasons stated above.
The rules don't ban for combo. If you admit it's both, not one or the other alone, it fails the current criteria.

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 5:12 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
MRHblue wrote:
majikal wrote:
B. Why won't people do it for long? Godo grabs big, dumb equipment and puts it right into play. That's his schtick. Helm is the biggest, dumbest equipment. As long as both cards exist, people will play them both. You vastly overestimate the ability of players to self-regulate, especially when both cards combined are <$10.
For the same reason I don't see hermit druid combo or Zur all the time. People get tired of playing with/against fragile combo.

Quote:
Eldrazi were certainly a decisive factor in the banning of Rofellos. Erayo was banned after years of being legal after Scars of Mirrodin block came around with its cheap artifacts and free spells. Sometimes new cards make old cards problematic.
It is intellectually dishonest to pretend that had anything to do with either. Both fell to the changes of 'banned as commander' getting the axe. Provide some evidence or admit that is BS.

I meant the banning of Rofellos as a commander, after the Eldrazi came out. It was banned because Eldrazi Green with Rofellos at the helm was stupid, exactly one ban cycle after Rise of the Eldrazi came out. Sure it was legal in the 99 for a while and then got fully banned when the rules changed, but that's not the banning I was talking about. Likewise with Erayo, it was banned as a commander exactly one ban cycle after New Phyrexia. Coincidence? No sir.

MRHblue wrote:
Quote:
The existence of helm specifically makes Godo a problem, yes. But no, "just don't put it in the deck" is not a valid answer, for the reasons stated above.
The rules don't ban for combo. If you admit it's both, not one or the other alone, it fails the current criteria.

We've never had a situation where the commander IS the combo. Saying they don't ban for combo assumes that the combo is simply in the deck and has to be accessed by building your deck around finding it. In the case of Godo, your commander just goes and grabs a single card out of your deck and you win the game on the spot. This situation is totally new to Commander.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 5:34 am 
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Joined: 2013-Oct-26 9:21 am
Age: Dragon
Location: Xenia, OH, USA
Mr Degradation wrote:
Bravo. You delete a post, to opt for another ad hominem- because apparently being asked if you've tried something AS OLD AS THE GAME ITSELF is too painful. That sure shows a great deal of confidence when you DEMAND THAT THE RULES CHANGE, but your principals, or evidence boil down to to outright misrepresenting the permutations in which this can happen.

Thanks dude, REAL insightful thread. Shows a great deal of concern for the health of the rules, and the community that participate in this format. Absolutely certain this will persuade the RC to ban one of two support tools for decks which are archetypically at a disadvantage in terms of difficulty to build and pilot at any of level of play.

Image


majikal wrote:
Poor little sausage.


Hey.. Both of you need to calm down...


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 5:54 am 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
tgambitg wrote:
Hey.. Both of you need to calm down...

It's best not to engage. If a poor little sausage isn't capable of participating in a conversation without spewing vitriol then we should pity them for the poor little sausage that they are.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 5:56 am 

Joined: 2012-Apr-11 7:17 am
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
I meant the banning of Rofellos as a commander, after the Eldrazi came out. It was banned because Eldrazi Green with Rofellos at the helm was stupid, exactly one ban cycle after Rise of the Eldrazi came out. Sure it was legal in the 99 for a while and then got fully banned when the rules changed, but that's not the banning I was talking about.
No, it was REbanned because hey look it meets an actual ban criteria: Too much mana to quickly

Quote:
Likewise with Erayo, it was banned as a commander exactly one ban cycle after New Phyrexia. Coincidence? No sir.
Yes, as it relates to that particular set. The game had tons of free spells before that, NPH added very few. It became a hot topic when a bunch of decks won visibly with it in in a very specific manner. Unless you can actually link the two with evidence , it's BS.

Quote:
We've never had a situation where the commander IS the combo. Saying they don't ban for combo assumes that the combo is simply in the deck and has to be accessed by building your deck around finding it. In the case of Godo, your commander just goes and grabs a single card out of your deck and you win the game on the spot. This situation is totally new to Commander.
I assume nothing, just look at what has been said by the RC. Cards have to meet criteria to be banned, not a group of cards. Combos and tutors exist now, and can win faster and with lesss interaction than this.

This has become circular. You think this is unprecedented and needs adjustment. I do not. Only time will tell.

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My... history of buying Magic cards is probably a tapestry of bad financial decisions >_>
niheloim wrote:
No, I think he's right. I'm just all butt-hurt over prophet.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 7:42 am 

Joined: 2008-Jan-25 8:26 am
Age: Elder Dragon
Location: Calgary
majikal wrote:
words

An insulting and condescending post counts as disengagement or de-escalation?

Re-evaluate your priorities here.

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 Post subject: Foot in it
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 9:30 am 

Joined: 2017-Jun-13 4:56 am
Age: Drake
majikal your question has been answered, the talk was had. If you don't like the answer you got let it go or take the question elsewhere. Persistently last-wording and aggressively confronting people with a different opinion than you is bad manners.

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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 1:53 pm 

Joined: 2009-Jul-02 4:25 pm
Age: Drake
Evilkritter wrote:
majikal your question has been answered, the talk was had. If you don't like the answer you got let it go or take the question elsewhere. Persistently last-wording and aggressively confronting people with a different opinion than you is bad manners.

I haven't aggressively confronted anyone. There was a poor little sausage who couldn't make a post without being insulting, so I took pity on him.

I didn't ask a question, though. But thanks for letting me know that you are the arbiter of conversations on this board.


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 Post subject: Re: We need to talk about Godo and/or Helm of the Host
AgePosted: 2018-May-15 2:50 pm 
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Joined: 2012-Feb-07 4:15 pm
Age: Elder Dragon
majikal wrote:
I'm unpersuaded by the "just lightning bolt it" argument. That stops it for a turn. Godo just goes back to the Command zone and gets to try again the next turn. Blowing up the Helm is far more effective, but red has all kinds of artifact recursion, so it's far from some glass cannon.

majikal wrote:
11 mana is not that much, especially for a red deck.

These two statements are just plain untrue, especially the second one. I'm particularly confused as to why you'd say "especially for a red deck", since in terms of general mana ramp red is the second worst color, just barely beating out blue. What red is good at doing is efficient one-shot ramp, aka rituals and Skirk Prospector and whatnot.

And if you're running a lot of those type of effects, then bolting Godo is precisely the best play. Godo's player will have just used up a ritual or two to try to get him out early, only to have him go back to the command zone. Not only is that an effective 2-3 for 1, but you've also severely gimped any chance the player has to get Godo out again. If you use say the Prospector to get Godo out the first time, you have a reliable 10 mana plus the one from the Prospector which you then use to pay the necessary 11 mana. If Godo gets bolted, you now have just a flat 10 mana while you now need 13 mana to do what you want. That is an insanely powerful tempo setback, one that is impossible to come back from with a combo deck like Godo.

And most importantly, something that I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet (or if it has, hasn't been stressed over and over) is that mono-red is atrocious at defending combos, probably the worst color combo in the game aside from colorless. When you put Godo in play, you have close to zero defense against removal. Unless you're willing to go full-on Stax, a strategy which is absolutely horrendous with Godo, Red's only real defenses against combo breakers are Red Elemental Blast and rattlesnakes like Price of Glory. Red is also pretty bad at the game of card advantage, with most draw effects being looter or wheel effects and therefore technically a form of card disadvantage.

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